🔥 Bourbon’s Past, Present & Future Maggie Kimberl on Whiskey, History & Mentorship 🥃🌍

From flatboats to today’s bourbon boom 🥃 Maggie Kimberl shares history, mentorship & industry challenges 🌍 Don’t miss this deep dive! 🎙️  @ThirstyThursdaysat3PMEST

In this episode of Thirsty Thursdays, Jessie Ott sits down with Maggie Kimberl, content editor of American Whiskey Magazine. From bourbon’s roots in Louisville to the global whiskey boom, Maggie shares the fascinating journey of America’s native spirit — and her own rise as a respected writer and Kentucky Colonel.

🔑 Takeaways:
🥃 Bourbon’s origins: flatboats, Bourbon Street & barrel-aging myths
🌳 Sustainability challenges: glass, oak, and the emerald ash borer
🌾 Innovation: heirloom grains & experimental finishes
🤝 Mentorship: Fred Minnick, Michael Veach & industry collaboration
🌍 Beyond Kentucky: Texas, Colorado & California’s whiskey wave

👍 Like this video if bourbon is part of your story
💬 Comment your favorite bourbon (or NA whiskey alternative!)
🔔 Subscribe for weekly insider conversations on beverage innovation
🔗 Share with your network of spirits enthusiasts

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Transcript

Jessie (00:29)
Welcome to Thursday, Thursday at 3 PM Eastern Standard Time. My name is Jessie and I have Maggie here today. How are you doing, Maggie? I'm doing, I'm doing well, but I don't think I'm doing quite as good as you. It looks like you've got about 50 bourbon bottles sitting next to you over there. That looks pretty, pretty amazing. One wall.

Maggie Kimberl (00:37)
I'm doing well. Thanks for having me. How are you today?

Yeah, and this is just one wall of my office. They're on every wall of my

office and in my dining room. So yeah, it's quite the fire hazard I'm sitting in right now.

Jessie (00:56)
Yeah, so you're the party cove over there.

Maggie Kimberl (00:58)
Yeah, not a lot of partying going on, just a lot of business. Whiskey is a business just like any other business.

Jessie (01:01)
Yeah.

Yeah, it sure is good people in it too. So where are you calling from today? Lul-vul. I'll never get it right. Ah.

Maggie Kimberl (01:06)
Oh absolutely. Louisville, Kentucky. Louisville. I have a handy chart on the wall behind me of all the different pronunciations

of Louisville, but if you're from here you say Louisville. Yep.

Jessie (01:20)
I can do

Louisville. Yeah Louisville. Okay. Now that I can see it, I think I can pronounce it like that. Oh. I did it wrong then, didn't I? Louisville. So you just cringe? You're like, oh.

Maggie Kimberl (01:23)
Not luavel, but lvl.

There are plenty of people who say it that way. So that's why we have the sign. This is actually,

this is a photo of a neon sign that is in our visitor center downtown. So when you actually come to Louisville you can get your picture taken by this.

Jessie (01:44)
That's funny. I like that. I don't think people that aren't from there will ever get it right. Or at least I won't.

Maggie Kimberl (01:48)
It's funny because I went to, there are some other Louisville's in, around the United States and I went to Louisville, Colorado and I was like, hey, I'm trying to find Louisville and they're like, what? And I was like, Louisville? And they're like, you mean Louisville? And I was like, no.

Jessie (02:04)
Oh, that's funny. Yeah. See, it's just Louisville people.

Or Kentuckians, I would imagine. Everybody knows how to say it. Is it really?

Maggie Kimberl (02:11)
It's iffy once you go outside of the city.

Yeah, it's iffy once you go outside of the city. Like you have to actually be from Louisville to know how to say Louisville, right?

Jessie (02:19)
What do you know the history behind that if you don't it's okay, I'm just curious why it's

Maggie Kimberl (02:23)
So

the pronunciation or the name, because I know the history behind the name, but the pronunciation is just, I mean, that's a whole other podcast right there. So it was named for King Louis. This was part of the French territory for a long time. And so Louisville was founded in like, like 1789, I think.

Jessie (02:31)
Okay.

Maggie Kimberl (02:42)
So it's a pretty old city, but it's, you know, this

Jessie (02:44)
Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (02:45)
used to be the Western frontier of the United States. And, or no, I guess it was founded, it was founded before the country was founded. And so the country was founded in 1776. But I don't remember all that, all that different stuff. But yes. It was named for King Louis the 16th. You know, you'll see Fleur-de-Lys all over.

Jessie (02:54)
It doesn't, it's okay. I didn't mean to pop that in. I just thought, oh, that's interesting.

Maggie Kimberl (03:03)
um you know all over the art like our street signs all have fleur de lis on them and all that kind of stuff that's kind of like the unofficial uh symbol of of the city or the official symbol of the city i guess probably

Jessie (03:12)
Yeah, that's really cool. I like that a lot. Good rich history.

Maggie Kimberl (03:15)
Yeah.

Oh, definitely. And one of the really interesting things is about our water, which kind of has a lot to do with the reason that bourbon was so successful. So, Louisville actually has one of the oldest and most sophisticated water treatment facilities in the United States, because at one time Louisville was known as the graveyard of the West. So, during westward expansion people would would come through Louisville and get get typhus or cholera or whatever and die.

And so a lot of people decided to get together and start treating the water so that it'd be safer for people to drink. And between that first typhus epidemic and the second typhus epidemic, that's when that took place. And by the time the second typhus epidemic came around, people in Louisville were much better off than people like out in the rest of the state and the other parts of Westford expansion. So even to this day, we have

We're pretty much a leader in water treatment, and people come here to learn how to handle water treatment and things like that. And that kind of plays into the bourbon industry because you may have probably heard one of the reasons that Kentucky bourbon is so good is because we have that awesome limestone filtered water.

Jessie (04:15)
Yeah, for sure.

Absolutely. Very interesting. I didn't know that. So I guess Louisville is just a big old beverage town.

Maggie Kimberl (04:29)
It really is. We also have a Louisville Ale Trail. That's a that's a fairly new thing. I think that just launched maybe a year or two ago. And we have a lot of breweries as well. And historically, we have always had a lot of beverage beverage type stuff. So there was a pretty big German population here, you know, probably about the mid to late

breweries as a result of that. But also like when you look at the history of the Kentucky bourbon industry as a whole, the different immigrants that made that, you know, you have everything from, you know, Isaac Wolf Bernheim was an Eastern European Jewish man who immigrated here and ended up running the second largest distillery, owning the second largest distillery in Kentucky. Or no, that was Henry Craver.

also an Eastern European Jewish man, second largest. Isaac Wolf Bernheim, I think actually had the largest. But there are people from Wales and France and just all over immigrants from everywhere who came here and made their mark on the distilling industry. And even now we're starting to see a lot of history being uncovered of the African-American.

influence in the distilled spirits industry.

Jessie (05:38)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's, that's very interesting. So do you have, um, based on, you know, obviously you're the bourbon girl.

Do you have any insight or what is your opinion on the history of the word bourbon and where it came from? So I've heard the whole New Orleans bourbon street thing and you know Okay

Maggie Kimberl (05:50)
There's a, there are a lot of people. So that is the predominant theory.

So a lot of people say, oh, it came from Bourbon County. And that's not entirely true. Bourbon County, we do have a Bourbon County. There is a distillery there now. There certainly were distilleries there pre-prohibition. But like when you put together the available historic information, it just doesn't support that really. And the predominant.

theory is put out there by my colleague Michael Veach, the bourbon historian. He's the author of Kentucky Bourbon Whiskey and American Heritage. And he actually teaches this class. He just got off of a river cruise. He got home from a river cruise yesterday. He does a bourbon cruise every year on paddle wheel boats on the river. And he teaches historical classes about bourbon. And one of the things that he teaches is the connection between, you know,

Jessie (06:33)
How fun!

Maggie Kimberl (06:39)
Kentucky bourbon whiskey, the river, markets like New Orleans. So, you know, at one time, New Orleans was the main export market. And this was, you know, before steam power was even available. And so, you know, a lot of times these barrels of whiskey, and before that they would be in earthenware jugs, which is kind of why we transitioned to barrels, because the earthenware jugs would often break during the journey. They would be loaded on flat boats.

and they would go down the Ohio River, down the Mississippi River, and then be unloaded in New Orleans, and those flat boats would be dismantled. So the other kind of fun fact there is New Orleans pre-Hurricane Katrina was the largest collection of shotgun houses in the United States after Katrina. I think it's the second or third, because a lot of those unfortunately got wiped out. But that lumber that was in, that is still in a lot of those shotgun houses,

were disassembled flat boats and that lumber came from Kentucky. So you would take your flat boat, you know, obviously you couldn't get your flat boat back up the river because it didn't have any sort of locomotion. But you know, once you got down there, you had you sold your whiskey, you sold your boat, and then a lot of times you would buy a horse, ride it back up the Natchez Trace, and that's where Kentucky thoroughbreds came from.

Jessie (07:33)
Uh-uh. Right.

No way. I did not know that. Interesting.

Maggie Kimberl (07:51)
So that's the predominant theory, but the idea there

is, people came to request some of that bourbon street whiskey. That's really the theory that Michael Veach has come upon after his decades and decades of research. And the reason why is, there are a number of factors. I always like to tell people like bourbon wasn't, people weren't sitting around a boardroom table saying,

we should make this stuff and we should put it in this barrel and we should call it bourbon. It just didn't happen that way. It was out of necessity because you needed to preserve crops. You needed to have something that could be used for medicine, calories during the winter, you know, to clean cuts and scrapes, to barter for a bucket of nails to build your barn and all that sort of thing. And so, you know, whiskey had a very utilitarian function.

And so like on the frontier, they would distill it. They would put it clear whiskey into an earthenware jug. That was that. They could trade a jug of whiskey for whatever they needed from their neighbors. But when it comes to bourbon becoming bourbon, we don't see the word bourbon used until about the early to mid 1800s. There was an advertisement.

in a newspaper advertising for bourbon whiskey. And then, you know, the incremental improvements that took place over time were things like, okay, the earthenware jugs break, so let's put it in a barrel. And then we have in the Corliss papers, which are at the Filson Historical Society, we have a letter from a grocer to a distiller saying, hey, can you char the inside of that barrel? Cause that's what they do with that brandy.

and you know those people down in New Orleans they really like that French brandy so maybe if we char the inside of our barrel it'll kind of mimic that French brandy characteristic. So you have all these like incremental things that took place that that turned it into bourbon. So it's really hard to pinpoint. You know a lot of people want to say like oh Evan Williams was actually a person he was the wharf master in Louisville. Elijah Craig. Elijah Craig Baptist preacher.

Jessie (09:29)
That is really cool!

Maggie Kimberl (09:46)
father of bourbon. You know, there's this kind of mythology that's built up around him, like, oh, he had a barn fire and it burnt, you know, charred one side of his staves that were leaning up against the wall. Then he just decided to go ahead and make a barrel out of it. They put his whiskey in there. And so he's the father of bourbon. It just didn't, you know, that's, that's a really neat and tidy marketing story. It just didn't happen that way. History doesn't happen that way.

Jessie (10:07)
Right.

Yeah, that's very true. Wow. That's a lot of history in a short amount of time that I had no idea. So I appreciate that. That was really cool.

Maggie Kimberl (10:17)
You bet.

Jessie (10:17)
Yeah, because I know that the steamboat had a lot to do with it as well, which I think didn't that increase the bourbon production and down this down to... Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (10:26)
Oh, absolutely. I mean, like when you have the ability to transport things easier,

and you have more of an ability to open up a market, it's easier to get your products moved. It's easier to, you know, when things like that become easier, they naturally are going to expand. Right. So like if you have to personally load a bunch of jugs of whiskey onto a flat boat and, you know, like kind of just float down the river for, you know, two months or whatever.

like that's gonna deter a lot of that trade from taking place. But then when you have a steamship, because the round trip was like six months, eight months, something like that. So it'd be like, you know, six, eight weeks going down the river to New Orleans, but then it would be, you know, like four or five, six months getting back to Kentucky. So the steamship really cut a lot of time out of that. So I think with the steamship, you can get from Kentucky to New Orleans and...

10 days or something like that. So, you know, it's really interesting, you know, how all those advances kind of impacted the, you know, it's just these little shifts that kind of took place throughout history.

Jessie (11:22)
Yeah.

And didn't, weren't there a lot of accidents with the flat boats which is why they were pushing towards an alternative because of the different levels of the rivers?

Maggie Kimberl (11:36)
I mean, that certainly makes sense.

I don't know a whole lot about the history of flat boats. I did actually, there was a, I went to visit a distillery in Missouri three or four weeks ago, the McCormick Distillery, which is also the Ben Holiday Distillery. I've got some of their whiskey right here. So this is actually a distillery that was founded in 18...

gonna forget now 1864 I think by a couple of brothers from Kentucky during that westward expansion. So Ben Holiday, you've probably heard his name before, he was the stagecoach king. But he also founded a distillery, you know, he and his brother got to Missouri, they got to the Kansas City area, it's in Weston right outside of Kansas City, and they found like there's this river, there's this limestone spring water, and they're like, hey we know what to do with

kind of. So they found that distillery, his brother actually ran it while he went on to found like the Pony Express, you've heard of the Pony Express, that was Ben Holiday. And so there's there's actually a really cool steamboat museum there. And the Missouri River, one of the big problems is that it's very muddy and murky. And so you don't have quite that problem with the Ohio River. And you know,

Jessie (12:29)
Yep. Okay. Oh wow.

Maggie Kimberl (12:45)
it's probably a little bit muddy in the Mississippi River, but like the Missouri River is very muddy. And so even with the steamboats, they would oftentimes get impaled by logs. So there are a lot of like sunken steamboats. And so this museum that I went to in Kansas City was all about the recovery efforts of digging up. There was an earthquake that rerouted the Missouri River

30 or 40 years after this boat sunk. And they dug up all these artifacts from this steamship wreck. So it was, and they think there are, you know, literally hundreds more of these steamship wrecks. So certainly, you know, boating was not as straightforward as it is today. So I live right off of the Ohio, I'm about, the Ohio River's like a mile that way. So.

I grew up on the river and one of the main differences in the modern era versus pre-1920s, you had a lot of shipping channel dredging from the Army Corps of Engineers in the early 1900s to make those waterways more viable. And so, one of the challenges for flat boats

during the frontier days was the Ohio River like kind of stopped in Louisville and there was what's called the Falls of the Ohio. And so in times of the year when the water levels were lower, you really could not get through there because it was like just, you know, a stone outcropping. There are lots of fossils in there. There's a park there now.

And so what they ended up doing was building a lock and dam system so that boats could get through there. But before that, you would have to completely unload your flatboat, portage around and then reload it and go on down the river. So, you know, it was it was certainly a difficult journey. And I'm sure there were more places along these river channels that were like that. We don't have that today because the Army Corps of Engineers went around and was like, hey,

Jessie (14:17)
Yup. Ugh. Ugh. Sounds painful. Heh heh.

Maggie Kimberl (14:33)
We're gonna make this a viable shipping channel. And so, you know, like if you go to the river now in Louisville, you can watch barges go down all day long, carrying, you know, they'll carry grain, they'll carry coal, all those different things, just all day long.

Jessie (14:45)
Yeah, we grew up near the Mississippi, so we had locks over there too, so I'm familiar with that system, but I can't imagine what it was like to have to deal with that before all that was built. You know, I mean, to think about the unloading. Ugh. Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (14:47)
Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah, big challenge. I mean, you know, it's amazing to think about those challenges that, that, you know, these are things that we just take for granted now. If you

want to go somewhere, you just put your boat in the water and go.

Jessie (15:06)
Yep. If you can afford to get one, these things, they're so expensive. Everything's expensive. I guess not. There you go. Or a few thousand. Yeah. We didn't have a very big boat, but we could ski and, and tube and stuff behind it was really fun.

Maggie Kimberl (15:08)
Yeah.

Oh yeah, well, you know what Boat stands for, right?

I stout another thousand. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Yeah, my dad had a sailboat when I was growing up. So he was, everybody else was out there water skiing and we were on a sailboat. Yeah.

Jessie (15:34)
Yeah, sailing is awesome though. That's really

cool. Do you still do it? No. Yeah, me either. We will rent a boat once in a while and take the nephews out, um, here locally, but nothing too often, but it's fun, something different. So you say you grew up on the Ohio river. So where are you originally from? Okay.

Maggie Kimberl (15:37)
Oh no, not for decades.

Yeah, it's always nice to be out on the water.

So I've lived in Louisville my whole life and

my mom's side of the family has been in Louisville like pretty much since the founding. My mom's mom's family from Louisville many many many many generations and then my mom's dad's side of the family was from Eastern Kentucky, Harlem. So I was born and raised in Louisville.

Jessie (16:14)
Okay. Okay, nice. It's a great town. I've been there once or twice. We've done a bourbon trail with my old job in the past and I really want to get out there again and do it with some friends and just spend a few weeks out there.

Maggie Kimberl (16:25)
Yeah, it's really fun and the nice

thing now, so like when I first started doing this, there were no distilleries in in Louisville that were operating. And so since I started doing this, there are, I have to like count it up in my head in a map. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. I think there are eight like within a

10 block stretch, which is pretty amazing. And they've done some really, I think it's actually 10 now. Bob Dylan actually just opened, or is opening a satellite tasting experience in downtown Louisville, and is opening a distillery out in Kentucky. So, you know, it's reached that level of popularity at this point,

Jessie (17:01)
That's cool. Yep.

The celebrities are coming in. Yeah, it's smart. Wow. Yeah, that's incredible. Well, I know they're kind of spread out too, because...

Maggie Kimberl (17:10)
you know, Bob Dylan's like, yes, I'm going to put my distillery right there, which I think is pretty cool. So you can have an entire like weekend and not see all the distilleries in Louisville.

Jessie (17:24)
Um, you know, we, w what was the major brands? It was beam. I was with beam at the time. And then we had, um, wild Turkey and then heaven hill. So.

Maggie Kimberl (17:32)
Yeah,

I mean, so when I started this, there were basically like the big eight distilleries in Kentucky. And then there were starting to be a few little craft distilleries here and there. I believe we're up to like 75 or 80 in Kentucky now. And then, you know, when I started doing this, it was basically like a cluster in Kentucky, two distilleries in Tennessee, one distillery in Indiana.

Jessie (17:46)
Wow.

Maggie Kimberl (17:57)
And then of course this one place out in Missouri. And that was like, basically, you know, there's one distillery out in California that opened up, you know, like 30 years ago. So like there were maybe 40, 50 distilleries 15 years ago. And now there are 3,400 in the United States. The landscape has really changed.

Jessie (18:15)
Wow. Wow, I didn't know that there was that many.

Yeah, a lot of those are better in Texas too. Not, not a lot, not majority of those, but a lot of them. There's a lot of... Yeah. Yep. That makes sense.

Maggie Kimberl (18:25)
There are a ton of distilleries in Texas. Texas and Colorado are two of the places that I'm paying the most attention to right now because

they've gotten to that level where they're starting to realize, hey, we need to work together to get people to come here. And that's, you know, when those distilleries start forming those associations and working together for their mutual benefit, that's really when you have something special.

Jessie (18:49)
Right. And that's what happened in Kentucky too. Because I, you know, I've met Bill Samuels Jr. and Jimmy and, you know, they all held hands and, you know, bourbon wasn't always a big thing. And so when a, when bourbon wasn't selling, they were, they weren't, it was, it was tough, you know, but they all got together. They're all friends, you know, working with Jimmy and with Fred No, meeting Fred No and how basically...

Maggie Kimberl (18:52)
Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Jessie (19:10)
You know, Jimmy's, Fred's, like father figure now, they're that close. Like it's really, it's a really cool association. Yeah, it really is. Ooh, what's that?

Maggie Kimberl (19:13)
Thank you.

It's touching. It's touching. But you know, there's also like a lot of really interesting history that I'm just starting to kind of get into. And so

you know, like this, this goes back to, you know, like the 1800s, the mid 1800s, where everybody was like, hey, why don't we all agree to not produce too much so we don't flood the market? And then like one person's like, screw you, I'm going to do whatever I want and floods the market and like tanks everything for everybody.

So it's kind of the cycle that keeps happening where it's like somebody comes in and they're gonna take advantage of this popularity and then they end up screwing it up for everybody. And it's just the cycle that has happened over and over and over again. It's really interesting to dig into that history.

Jessie (19:55)
Hmm. Yup.

Ego. It just, it just, it's always there. I'm going to be better. Yeah. Interesting. So how did you get into bourbon? Like what did your parents or did, did your grandparents or something that was it always part of your life or is this something that you discovered on your own?

Maggie Kimberl (20:12)
Not really. No,

nope, just discovered it on my own. So I was a stay at home mom when my kids were little and I needed to get out of the house and go to a place where there were no children. And so I thought getting a job at the liquor store would be a good way to do that. So I walked up to the liquor store in my neighborhood and I got a job and I worked three nights a week.

My husband would come home from work and I would walk out the door and I would go work my shift, come home at like 1030 at night, and then do the mom thing during the day, and then liquor store at night. So, you know, that was, you know, really a good opportunity for me that I didn't realize quite what a good opportunity that was at the time. I originally thought that I was going to learn about wine because I had spent, you know,

basically a decade in food service. And I thought, you know, if I'm gonna continue that when it's time to go back to work for real, quote unquote, I should probably have some more marketable skills. So I'm gonna learn about wine. Quickly discovered that wine people were not my people. You know, they're a little pinkies in the air for me. So I...

Jessie (21:02)
Uh huh.

Maggie Kimberl (21:15)
was really, I've always been really into the farm to table movement. You know, like I grew up in a family where we had a huge vegetable garden every year. After my parents divorced, I moved in with my dad on his farm. And you know, he had chickens and ducks. And eventually, after I moved out, he had goats and hogs and cattle and all kinds of different stuff. And, and so, you know, like I was always into the farm to table movement. And, you know, I always had a big garden when my kids

Jessie (21:33)
I love that.

Maggie Kimberl (21:42)
Number one, I was poor and I needed the food. But number two, like that was a skill set that I had, right?

Jessie (21:45)
Right. Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (21:49)
And so I started to kind of, I remember like standing at the cash register one day, kind of staring at the bourbon aisle. And I was like, you know what? They make that stuff here. Like that's made just right down the street. It really doesn't get any more locavore than that. And so I should probably learn about that stuff.

Jessie (22:04)
Right. That's true.

Maggie Kimberl (22:06)
So I started to kind of pay more attention to it. And this was, you know, 13 years ago was when I started this. And back then the bourbon boom was really just kind of percolating. And so master distillers would come in and do tastings and bottle signings. Nobody knew who they were. Nobody cared. This was kind of like what...

prompted the bourbon boom to take off because these guys got out there and they just spent so much time face-to-face talking to consumers Like hey if I can get you to taste this then maybe you'll like it Maybe you'll understand the craftsmanship that goes into this and so, you know Probably Chris Morris from Woodford Reserve made me my first mint julep You know there on the in the liquor store one year and so I got to meet a whole bunch of

Jessie (22:29)
Hmm. Yeah. Roll their sleeves up.

Maggie Kimberl (22:49)
master distillers and, and, you know, learn a little bit. And it wasn't something where I was like intentionally like I'm going to learn, you know, I'm going to talk to these guys and it was just kind of like organic, like they're here, I'm going to talk to them. And so then one week during Derby week, Jim Rutledge was in my store back when he was still with Four Roses. And this was about 10 years ago. And so I don't know if you ever heard of the Kentucky Derby, kind of a big deal.

Jessie (23:09)
Okay. Yep.

It's a little bit of a big deal. I bet.

Maggie Kimberl (23:14)
everything is pandemonium during the entire three weeks leading up to the Kentucky Derby. Everything

is pandemonium, even the liquor store. And so I was standing at the cash register and every time I would try to go talk to Jim Rutledge, a whole horde of people would come in and have to go right back to the cash register. And it was like that. He was there like three hours, I think, and it was like that the whole time. And then he was packing up to leave and I had to go on break. So I went to the break room and I was sitting there eating my sad little peanut butter sandwich.

And the next thing I knew, Jim came through the door with bottles in one hand, cups in the other hand. He's like, you didn't get to do my tasting. And he sat down with me. He taught me like the history of four roses, the 10 different recipes, which recipes were in which bottle, proper bourbon tasting technique. And it was just this light bulb moment. I was like, this is amazing. I have to tell the whole world about this. And so I quit my job and started writing about whiskey.

Jessie (23:58)
That is really cool. Yes.

That is really cool. So you already had the degrees in, um, um, what yeah, English and philosophy. So you're always, you're kind of already going towards that direction.

Maggie Kimberl (24:10)
English and Philosophy.

Well, so like, and so this was, so 10 years ago, I had already been out of college for a while and I had done some different things. When I was in college, I wanted to be a writer and I worked on the newspaper staff intermittently and just like couldn't make it work. I'm a first generation college graduate on my dad's side of the family. And so, you know, like I had to work full time and go to school full time. So I didn't really have a whole lot of spare time for stuff like that.

But I still wanted to be a writer. And then I had, you know, at least one professor. And I think it was actually two or three who were like, don't be a writer, you'll never make any money. And they were right. And so like, I tried literally everything else. And, you know, just didn't connect with any, you know, like I can do anything. Nothing is beneath me. I've done it all. But, you know, it just wasn't connecting. I just kind of felt like I was spinning my wheels always.

Jessie (24:58)
Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (25:01)
And, you know, I just wanted more than anything to be a travel writer, of all

Jessie (25:06)
Yes.

Maggie Kimberl (25:06)
things. And, you know, because I just I love getting out there, meeting people, having new experiences and all that kind of stuff. And so, like ultimately, like what I tell people is like it's a compulsion. Like it's a it's a character flaw that I'm a writer. Because if if I could choose something, I would choose something that paid a living wage.

Jessie (25:19)
Why? Yeah, absolutely. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

Maggie Kimberl (25:27)
but like I can't not be a writer. So I may as well make a little bit of money at it, right? So that's kind of how that came about, but it was kind of interesting. I think it was probably about two or three years ago. I was kind of like sitting there reflecting about my life and the journey that I was on and

everything. And I kind of had this realization that I accidentally became a travel writer just for whiskey.

And so, you know, that was kind of a fun realization to have because, you know, I was like, oh, hey, I had this dream that I did, like I had no inkling whatsoever of how people became writers and I didn't have anybody that I could talk to. You know, I didn't see anybody who was on this path who I could, you know, emulate. I just literally had to go figure it out on my own eventually.

Jessie (25:56)
Yeah, it is.

Figure it out. Yeah.

So how did you do it? Like, what was your first step?

Maggie Kimberl (26:18)
Well,

I mean I just so I had been writing for a local mom blog here called little family fun I'm still writing for them I write about things that I do with my kids and I've done a little bit of travel writing for them as well But I had there was another mom there who was also a writer and She was writing for Louisville comm she's a librarian. And so she was writing about you know

library things. And I said, Hey, I see Louisville.com is hiring. And I see that you're writing for them. Like who do I need to talk to here? And so it was really kind of serendipitous that I got in at the time that I did with the editor that I did and everything because they were really trying to increase their digital footprint. And the deal was right about whatever you want under this beat.

We're not gonna pay you very much, but I was making like I think Three I was making four dollars to eight dollars per article back then I think and They were just like do whatever you want as long as it falls under this beat so I was like I was like, okay, one of these is food and dining and I'm just gonna write about bourbon. So

Jessie (27:04)
Really?

Maggie Kimberl (27:23)
I didn't tell them that I was just gonna write about bourbon, but I was like, food and dining? Surely bourbon falls under this. And so I just kind of started writing about bourbon all the time and they're like, oh, hey, you're really good at that. Keep doing it. So I ended up doing that for like two years and it was, it didn't pay very much. I had to have, I had a whole other job on top of that to support my writing habit.

Jessie (27:27)
I'm sorry.

Nice.

Right, so were you out meeting all the Master Distillers and going and visiting all the distilleries and getting connected and...

Maggie Kimberl (27:48)
Absolutely.

Absolutely, like basically anything anybody invited me to I went, you know, basically like any opportunity I had I took it I was looking for opportunity, you know, I was out there and people, you know came to know my work and and came to trust my work And so that made it a lot easier and then I started writing for the whiskey wash and then I started writing for the alcohol professor I'm still writing for the alcohol professor and then my colleague Fred Mennick

said, hey, do you want to come write with me at Whiskey Magazine? I said, absolutely. And so I've been with Whiskey Magazine for about six or seven years now. And about four or five years ago, we launched American Whiskey Magazine. And I've been with them from the beginning. So I'm currently the content editor of American Whiskey Magazine. I contribute to Whiskey Magazine.

Jessie (28:19)
Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (28:38)
I contribute to Relish and Whiskey Magazine, which is behind me on the wall here. I just had my first opportunity to contribute to MBibe, which is right over here as well. And, you know, it's been a lot of fun. And then also along the way, I met, so Fred Minick is really somebody who has helped and mentored me a lot in my career.

And the other person who has helped and mentored me a lot has been Michael Veach, the Bourbon historian. So I met him back during my Louisville.com days as well. I would, I would go to both Fred Minnick's and Michael Veach's events and cover them for Louisville.com and got to know them a little bit. And so eventually with Michael, I kept saying like, Hey, do you have a website? And he'd be like, Oh, it's, it's on the list of things to do. And after like months of like,

Is it moving up on the list or like what's going on here? I was like, can I just build you a website? It'll take me like two hours. So I went over to his house and I had my laptop and I was like, here's your website. And he was like, can you just run it for me? And I was like, okay. So I built and I run his website. I'm still running it today. He's been a really great friend and mentor over the years.

Jessie (29:28)
Yeah. Oh, that's cool. Wordpress or?

That's really cool. That's awesome.

It's always nice to have those people that see, see, you know, the passion and the, and the love that you have for something and you share that and you want to help people within the industry. And I think there's a lot of that, um, throughout our industry. I was, I was talking to Nico Martini, which I, you know, right, Nico. Yeah. In fact, I think that's how he connected on LinkedIn. Your name popped up and I was like, yes, I would love to interview her. It was so cool. Um,

Maggie Kimberl (29:59)
Yes.

Jessie (30:07)
Yeah, so... Ugh. Yes, I'm totally your boss. Cause you're... you write for me! Hehehehe Yeah, he's funny. My friends have known him for a long time and we didn't even get through half of his stuff but, um, yeah, he was a very interesting person. I can't wait to meet him in person. But he seems to know a lot of people.

Maggie Kimberl (30:07)
Nico's hilarious, he tells people I'm his boss, which like I'm not his boss at all, but I'm just like, yes, yes, I'm totally Nico's boss. Hahaha. Yeah, exactly, you're working for me, buddy.

He's a fun guy.

He's a really fun guy.

Jessie (30:33)
Yeah. Yeah. I look forward to it. Um, so do you have any other mentors that you want to mention throughout your?

Maggie Kimberl (30:38)
You know, really, like there have been so many people who have helped me along this path. You know, a lot of times, so being a woman in any industry has some pretty unique challenges. And one of the things that I think really leaves an impression on me is when people go out of their way to, you know, kind of support

support women who are clearly not being supported, or just to say like, hey, I think this person's work is really great. And there have been a number of those people throughout the years who have either, you know, given me good advice or said kind words about me when I wasn't there that have made a difference in my life. And, you know, Lou Bryson, Chuck Cowdery, you know, there are just so many people who have really...

When somebody, Kyle Schwartz is another one, he is probably one of my biggest cheerleaders right now. It's really great to have, cause sometimes I'll just kind of be down, working as hard as I do and making as little money as I do, it gets very discouraging sometimes, even though I'm doing something that's really fun and all this kind of stuff, I'm like, this is a lot of work for not a lot of money, it's very discouraging.

Jessie (31:30)
That's awesome.

Important.

Maggie Kimberl (31:47)
But then every once in a while, I'll have a colleague who will publicly recognize me for something. And Kyle Schwartz is one of those people who just continues to do that. Like, oh, hey, by the way, you know, I have a lot of respect for Maggie's journalistic standards and ethos and all that kind of stuff. You know, and Lou Bryson actually mentioned me in his his most recent book, Albert Schmeed, you know, has been just absolutely fantastic.

He mentioned me in his latest book as well, but he also made me, he went a step further and made me a Kentucky Colonel for the work that I've done in this industry. So the Kentucky Colonel program is, you're like a special attache to the governor and you become a Kentucky Colonel by doing something to materially benefit the lives of Kentuckians.

Jessie (32:20)
Okay. What does that mean? I've not heard of that. Okay.

Maggie Kimberl (32:33)
And so like

Jessie (32:33)
Cool.

Maggie Kimberl (32:34)
there's a charitable aspect of it, but then there's also, you know, like, what are you doing to materially benefit, uh, Kentucky? And so, you know, for me, like I travel all over the world and spread the gospel of bourbon, you know, because like we're, we're in this really special time. You know, when I was growing up, um, you know, tobacco was really kind of, um, the, the king and it was kind of going away and like coal.

Jessie (32:46)
That's right.

Maggie Kimberl (32:57)
was also, you know, just has since the 30s has had just so many challenges as far as, you know, being able to sustain a positive public image and things like that. And so like when I was growing up, you know, I was watching our main economic drivers kind of shrivel and die, which by the time I graduated from high school and then eventually college, all of my friends left.

because there were not careers here. And so, you know, one of the things that makes this so important and so personal to me is because I'm watching these careers come back to Kentucky because of the bourbon industry. And so like one of the reasons that I work so hard, despite, you know, the dozens of dollars I make as a writer,

is because I want this to be a place that my children can stay if they choose to. I want those jobs to stay here. And right now, the distilling industry, the Kentucky Distillers Association puts out an economic impact report in conjunction with the University of Kentucky every other year. I think we're due for one this year. But the economic impact of the Kentucky bourbon industry is staggering. There's

never been an industry like this before. I mean, we do a lot of auto manufacturing and things, a lot of manufacturing in general. But really, right now, the biggest thing that we have going for us is the distilled spirits industry.

Jessie (34:19)
Yeah, that's great. It doesn't surprise me. I mean, it's worldwide in a major way now. Um, and yep. And just to kind of go back to what I brought up, Nico, for the same reasons you just explained on how friendly and helpful people can be to each other in the industry, and that's really important and it makes it what it is. Right. That's why we love it. And.

Maggie Kimberl (34:23)
Yep. And growing more every day.

Absolutely.

That's one of the things that I love so much about this. You know, like I tend to be somebody who has a lot of social anxiety, but what has made it tolerable over the years is no matter where I go, I know people. You know, I can travel alone a lot. I spend a lot of time on the road. I can go places and I always know, I can always find somebody to have dinner with or, you know.

find somebody to have a drink with when I first get there. You know, like I go to all these festivals and I know like half the people there. That makes it really nice. And they're all really nice, kind, wonderful people. When I went to the New Orleans Bourbon Festival this year, the first night I was there, I saw Marty Duffy, who is a master of Scotch and is the current North American brand ambassador for Glen Caron Crystal.

And so I went and sat with him and talked with him. He's like, hey, I'm going to dinner with my niece and her husband. You want to join us? And I was like, absolutely. And so, you know, it's always just really nice. And so I get to meet, you know, not only do I get to hang out with with these people all over the world, but also I get to, you know, meet their families. And we know each other's, you know, we know each other's kids. We know each other's families and all that kind of stuff. So it is a really close knit kind community.

Jessie (35:34)
Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (35:51)
Um, and it's, it's, I can't imagine this happening at like Coca-Cola, you know, Coca-Cola and Pepsi are not like, Hey, how's little Johnny doing? You know, it just doesn't happen that way. And I think that's one of the things that's, that's so unique about this industry, because everybody, like we have this history that has repeated itself over, like we know what's coming next. If we don't work together.

Jessie (35:56)
Right. They're not friends. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yup.

Maggie Kimberl (36:17)
And so I think that that's a really unique thing about the industry.

Jessie (36:21)
Yeah, I agree. I see it in bourbon for sure. The other place that I saw it firsthand because I worked for them is with St. Michelle, Ted Baszler. He was always about promoting Washington wines because if there's a Washington wine on a menu, then we all win because we're all trying to help promote Washington wines. And so it's kind of the same camaraderie of

Maggie Kimberl (36:30)
mmm. yeah.

Yes.

Jessie (36:43)
of people getting together and helping each other out. And I know that there's a lot of, you know, the same types of relationships out there that they are in Kentucky. And that just makes it, it just makes it warm and fuzzy and it makes you smile. You just, and then it just makes you love it even more, you know, being in the industry.

Maggie Kimberl (36:51)
Absolutely.

Yeah.

At the end of the day,

if you're working in the beverage alcohol space and you're not having a good time, like you're probably not in the right, in the right...

Jessie (37:03)
You're not

in the right industry. Yeah, we work hard, but we play hard too. We have fun. So has, um, I think about this, um, the story Fred used to talk about with his dad Booker. You know, he loved his dad and his dad was amazing. And, um, you know, Fred says that he was kind of the beginning of the specialty bourbons, you know?

Maggie Kimberl (37:07)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

Jessie (37:23)
um not making it at mass but making it you know the real you know like not new but like different styles of bourbon and he would go

Maggie Kimberl (37:30)
So

like everybody kind of in the industry had had their own niche right so single barrel bourbons that was definitely more Elmer T. Lee over at Buffalo Trace. So you had Blanton's which was arguably so there's kind of like this this little caveat I like to have here so Blanton's was really the first like commercially produced single barrel bourbon. However

in the beginning of bourbon, all bourbons were single barrels because they did not bottle it. They just sold it by the barrel. And you would go down to the tavern and fill up your jug or whatever. And so like, as far as like commercially available consumer packaged single barrel whiskeys, that would be Blanton's at Buffalo Trace. The small batch definitely was Booker. And the...

But when you look at a small batch in Jim Beam scale versus a small batch in some of the craft distilleries now that did not exist when Booker was around, they're still very different animals. So, you know, Booker's small batches are, you know, you know, a few hundred barrels maybe, whereas, you know, a small batch at a craft distillery might be five or 10 or 20 or something like that. So, there's the...

Jessie (38:20)
Sure, yeah. Right. Right.

Maggie Kimberl (38:39)
It has changed dramatically over the last 10 to 15 years.

Jessie (38:43)
Yeah, and this is, I'm talking early 90s is what he was saying, because he would travel the world. Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (38:46)
Yeah. And so in the early 90s, yes, he was really

and Booker, interestingly, Booker never wanted to do single barrels because he felt that you really had to have the ability to blend multiple barrels together. We call it batching in Kentucky because blending has traditionally been a dirty word. But like you...

You would have to, you know, Booker always felt that you would have to batch together multiple barrels just to get like kind of consistency and a better quality product. But now, you know, today Jim Beam absolutely makes single barrel products. So, you know, it's changed so much since we lost Booker.

Jessie (39:18)
Mm-hmm.

All right. Yeah. I wish I could have met him. Um, cause he just speaks so highly of him and he says his son is, um, is like his dad. So that's really exciting. I'd love to meet him and talk to him, but it's he's

Maggie Kimberl (39:28)
Yeah.

They call him Little

Book. He's actually such a fun guy and one of the most exciting projects that has come out and I don't think I have a bottle of it here, I'd show you. Jim Beam just came out with their first American single, Malt and that was all Freddie. So I think it's really interesting the direction that he's taking. He's a very creative person and he's such a nice guy. His dad I love, but I just kind of freeze up around Fred No.

Jessie (39:47)
I heard.

You do? He's funny. Oh man. Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (40:02)
But Freddie is such a like just he is he's Fred No is hilarious Love him will take every opportunity that I can to you know be in his presence

but then like if I'm if I'm Five feet from him. I'm just a statue But Freddie is like such an amazing like warm kind Humble person

Jessie (40:21)
Just asking.

Maggie Kimberl (40:26)
And, you know, he's very creative. I really like the direction that he's going with a lot of the experiments that he's doing.

Jessie (40:30)
Yeah, it's pretty exciting.

He would be perfect for the podcast because I know he's doing a lot of cool innovations. So maybe I can get him on sometime and meet him. I've heard him on other podcasts before, so hopefully he'll be open to it.

Maggie Kimberl (40:36)
Oh yeah, absolutely. Definitely.

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, well, so I know that he's been on...

I can't remember the name, Burban Lens, I think, is Jake Llewellyn's podcast. And I think that Jake and Freddie used to play football together, and that's kind of the connection there. But yeah, he definitely is available for that stuff from time to time.

Jessie (40:57)
Oh, okay. Well, that makes sense. Yeah.

Cool. Maybe I'll get to snatch in one of these days. Hehehehe. Yeah, I tried Instagram, but I don't know, you know, how often they check that. The PR people? Oh, okay. Sorry, fly.

Maggie Kimberl (41:06)
Yeah, definitely. You should reach out and see what you can find.

you have to go through the PR people. Most of those, most of those guys,

you know, it used to be back in Booker's day and back in Fred's day, you could approach them directly. And you know, there were a lot of master distillers that I could just call up and be like, Hey, I have a question about XYZ. And they'd be like, Yeah, sure. It's this and, and that would be it. But now it's like, everything is so structured that they won't even talk to you if you don't go through their PR.

Jessie (41:37)
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I get that. They're busy people. So what I was going to ask you...

Maggie Kimberl (41:40)
go.

Jessie (41:43)
And thinking about Fred and how he said Booker traveled the world, you know, as early as, you know, early nineties, mid nineties, as a, as, you know, the, a bourbon girl, does any of the master distillers ever contact you and say, Hey, we're going on a trip. Let's, let's take you around and meet all these different consumers. Now you got to work that girl. You got to get that angle.

Maggie Kimberl (41:58)
I wish they would. No? HAHAHAHA

I mean, I can't, well, so like I definitely have been invited to distilleries. Um, and, but, you know, that's, that's really my main focus is I write about it. I write mostly about consumer experiences. Um, and so, you know, I'll write about whiskey festivals. I'll write about, um, you know, go going and visiting distilleries. I'll write about, you know, I do a lot of book reviews and things like that. Um,

you know, I'm not really covering the industry. And so like I would have to really think about how I would angle that so that that would be something where I would be of value to them. And really, you know, I definitely get invited to like things that don't have anything to do with distilleries, and I pretty much just say, I don't know what to do with this, so I'm going to decline.

I got invited to a Denver Broncos game one time because a distillery out there was sponsoring them. And I was like, number one, a football game is totally wasted on me. There are so many people who get so much more enjoyment out of that. And number two, like, this is not something that a consumer can buy a ticket to. So I don't know like what I would be writing about really. Other than like, hey, be jealous of me because I got to go to a football game.

Jessie (42:58)
I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

Maggie Kimberl (43:14)
So, you know, like I am, I'm very selective about the stories that I do because I feel like it has to, I have to be able to make the case that it makes an impact to a consumer.

Jessie (43:14)
I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

events that they do and then some of the tastings and okay.

Maggie Kimberl (43:30)
Usually the event will invite me. Yeah,

I mean, like I do go to a lot of whiskey festivals and I'll teach classes and I'll host panels and things like that. I'm not, it's the kind of thing where if somebody's like, oh, hey, tag along with us, I'd be like, I mean, if I can't really make any money doing this, I don't really see a point in doing it because like it is a lot of fun, but this is not my hobby. You know, like this is my profession.

Jessie (43:52)
Yeah, no, I get that. That's cool. That's really fun. Um, let's see. What do you think are the main pain points for the bourbon industry? Or do you see any from your point of view? Shortages.

Maggie Kimberl (44:01)
There are a lot of them right now. I mean, so one of the biggest ones, so two of the biggest pain points right now are barrels and glass. And so

the war in Ukraine actually had a major impact in the availability of glass bottles in the United States. One of the biggest glass bottle producers is in Ukraine. And then the other thing is the issues surrounding,

So, you know, this is something that distillers are actively working together to address this. And you have for the last, you know, 10 plus years, you've had people doing things where like if you buy a bottle of Angel's Envy in April, we'll plant an oak tree. So Angel's Envy has been doing that for 10 years. Then you have like the Forest Foundation, which is partnered with the US Department of Forestry.

forestry, I think, and also like different distillers associations to better manage and be better stewards of the oak that's available. Now there's a new challenge. I don't know if you've heard anything about the emerald ash borer. So the emerald ash borer became a problem about 15-20 years ago where it was killing ash trees.

And at this point, ash trees in the United States are effectively extinct, I believe. And the main problem... Yeah. Yep. And so the main issue there is now the emerald ash borer has eaten through all of its food and is running out of things to eat because they've effectively wiped their favorite food off of the planet. And now they're starting to go after the oak.

Jessie (45:18)
We had that problem in Iowa and Wisconsin too. There's just trees that are just gone. They're just wiped out. They're dead.

Maggie Kimberl (45:37)
which is terrifying. So, you know, really there are a lot of people doing a lot of work toward better management and stewardship of forests and biodiversity and things like that. But right now, like there's, it's very difficult to get barrels and it's going to become more difficult as, you know, the oak availability becomes more of a challenge.

Jessie (45:58)
Yeah, I mean, I don't know how you would substitute something like that or, you know, synthesize or create some kind of something. I don't.

Maggie Kimberl (46:04)
Well, and really,

there are a lot of people who are talking about rolling back one of the standards of identity that it has to be a new barrel, because currently a lot of the distilleries will sell their beer after they dump the bourbon out, they'll either use it for a different type of whiskey or they'll sell them on the open market. So like a lot of Scotch is aged in.

Jessie (46:14)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it back on. So I'm going to go ahead and turn it off. So I'm going to go ahead and turn it on. So I'm going to go ahead and turn it off. So I'm going to go ahead and turn it on. So I'm going to go ahead

and turn it off. So I'm going to go ahead and turn it on. So I'm going to go ahead and turn it off. So I'm going to go ahead and turn it on. So I'm going to go ahead and turn it on. So I'm going to go ahead and turn it on. So I'm going to go ahead and turn it on. So I'm going to go ahead and turn it on. So I'm going to go ahead and turn it on.

Maggie Kimberl (46:30)
X bourbon barrels a lot of Canadian whiskey is aged in X bourbon barrels Tequila maple syrup like all these different things Make use Tabasco sauce is actually made in

used bourbon barrels, which is really interesting so There is definitely a market for used barrels, but there are a lot of people saying you know Maybe we don't actually have to Have a new barrel every time maybe we can you know work out?

a compromise where it can be a portion of used barrels because a lot of people don't realize this. The standard of it being only a new barrel came from the WPA. Are you familiar with the WPA? So this was the program that put people to work during the Great Depression and after the Great Depression sponsored by the federal government where they were looking for different

you know, industry. So when you go to a lot of the national parks, a lot of the buildings there were built during the WPA years. A lot of the trails were built during the WPA years. And so this was an attempt to put more people to work. And so they made this one of the standards of identity was that you had to use a brand new barrel because that would keep coopers in jobs. And so, like, historically, most bourbon

you know, before the industrial period would have been just sold in the barrel and you didn't expect to get that back. That was kind of one of the justifications of it. But when you're talking about that brief period of really the industrialization in the 1880s, 1890s up until prohibition, and you know, even a little bit after I think, when producers would dump a barrel,

they could absolutely reuse it. And a lot of times they did because barrels are very expensive. So there is historical precedent for having reuse barrels in bourbon. It's not super common. It wasn't super common even when it was allowable, but it still happened. So, you know, that's one of the things that people are starting to kind of murmur about is what if we undo this until we can get this oak thing under control?

Jessie (48:24)
Yeah, I think they're going to have to. They're going to have to do something.

Maggie Kimberl (48:26)
It's hard to

say. I mean, right now, I think that with all the steps that they're taking, they're telling me that, you know, things are going to should be fine for, you know, the next 20, 30 years. And that's really why they're putting so much emphasis on addressing it now, because you can't just plant an oak tree and harvest it tomorrow. So it's a it's a challenge. It's a big challenge.

Jessie (48:43)
So, not at all.

Do you see any trends or anything new coming out of Kentucky or in the bourbon industry?

Maggie Kimberl (48:55)
There are lots of trends. I mean, there are always new things popping up. When I first started doing this, it was, everything was basically the same standard recipe, bottled the same way. And if everybody had their own footprint, because obviously if you do the same process in different places, it's gonna be a little bit different. But then...

Angels Envy, Lincoln Henderson was the father of the Woodford Reserve brand. He's the one who really kind of brought that whole site back to life along with Stephen Thompson and Dave Shurrock. And so Steve and...

Lincoln are unfortunately no longer with us, but one of the things that Lincoln did after he retired from Woodford Reserve was started Angel's Envy with his grandson or his son and his grandsons. And one of the things that really set him apart was he started finishing bourbon in wine barrels. And that was unheard of at the time. And there were a lot of people who felt that that

no longer met the definition of bourbon because it had something added to it. And there are still people who will debate on that topic, but you know, really we're seeing so many barrel finishes now and different combinations of barrel finishes. And one of the really interesting things I wonder, I don't see any of it up here right now. There are so barrel craft spirits, which is barrel with two L's.

they've been doing a lot of different combinations. Like, well, they'll take this portion of barrels and finish it in this type of thing, and this portion, and then they'll kind of batch it all together. And they put so much detail on those labels, which I love to see. I feel like the more information you give consumers, the better. And they'll say, you know, it was this that was distilled here, that was aged this long, that was finished in this, and this that was distilled here, that was aged this long and finished in this.

and they'll have all of that stuff on that label. And it makes a very complex and complicated product, but they have a cult following. Another one of them is Broken Barrel, which is based in, their production is in Kentucky, but they're headquartered in California. And so basically what they do is they do like a stave finish recipe where they like cut staves into different proportions and put them in the barrel.

And that's kind of a play on the research that Makers Mark had been doing, where they came up with all their different private select and their wood finishing series and all that kind of stuff. So that's, I mean, finishes and staves and all that kind of stuff is all really big right now. One of the things that I'm following the most closely is the experimentation with pedigreed grains and heirloom grains.

Jessie (51:12)
private liberal. Select Yeah. That was fun. I got to do that once.

Oh, what's that?

Maggie Kimberl (51:32)
So basically all Kentucky bourbon is made with yellow dent number two corn. It's just whatever the farmers all grow, whatever is available commercially on the market. And you know, you can buy it from here, you can buy it from there, you can buy it from anywhere. And so a lot of the smaller producers in particular are saying, well, but you know what, like 150 years ago, this yellow dent number two wasn't really a thing.

It certainly wasn't as widespread as it is. And all these different farmers had different varietals that were optimized for their microclimates and things like that. And they had completely different flavor profiles. So we see a place like Jephthacreed, which has built their brand on Bloody Butcher corn, which is a red heirloom varietal of corn. And then we look at grains. So...

now there are whiskies on the market made with black corn, blue corn, white corn, orange corn, all the different colors of corn you can think of. There's a lot of that going on in Texas, obviously. There's a Mexican whiskey brand that's made with black corn. It's really interesting to watch that. And then on top of that, I'm sorry. Yeah, I really geek out about this stuff.

Jessie (52:21)
Yep, Alcones is.

Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, that's really cool. I like it too. Super fun.

Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (52:39)
And then, you know, on top of that, we're looking, we're seeing more people experimenting with different small grains. Small grains are more expensive, they're harder to come by. That's your wheat, your barley, your rye. Triticale, people are doing all kinds of different, there's a whiskey that recently got produced from a perennial wheatgrass. So, you know, it's really interesting, all these different things that are becoming available in a wide enough scale.

to actually produce whiskey with it. So one of the coolest stories that I did last year, there's a distillery up in Michigan called Mammoth Distilling. And basically what happened was their whiskey maker, Ari Sussman, discovered that rose and rye actually originated in the United States in Michigan at Michigan State University. And he traced the heritage of that and then tried to get some on the open market and it really was not available.

Simultaneously over in Pennsylvania, Laura Fields and the Delaware Valley Fields Foundation had been bringing that back for Dick Stoll before he passed away at Stollen Wolf Distillery because back when he was the master distiller at Michter's in Pennsylvania, that was the type of rye grain that he used. And so he fortunately lived long enough to see that first run of Rosen rye whiskey come off the stills there at Stollen Wolf.

But, you know, even though it was really popular in Pennsylvania and it grew in 30 states, it originated in Michigan. And so the folks at Mammoth got a little seed packet from the USDA seed bank and took that to an uninhabited island, South Manitou Island, at Bears Ears National Park and cultivated that on one of the original farms where it grew, you know, 40, 50 years ago.

And so it's a painstaking process going from an almost extinct grain to having enough to actually be able to distill it. And I think this year they will have enough to finally distill a small run of of rose and rye there.

Jessie (54:19)
is super cool. Yeah. Right.

That is really cool. So what kind of flavor profile is that do you know?

Maggie Kimberl (54:38)
It's hard to say, right? So I've had some of the Distillate from Stolen Wolf and it is a different flavor profile, but it's really hard to kind of pinpoint that because it's unaged at this point. And so you would have to compare it to an unaged rye whiskey that's made with a common rye. And so I'm really interested to see what the stuff looks like once it matures. We just don't know yet. It is.

Jessie (54:51)
Okay. Yeah. Oh, that's exciting. People that love

Rise are going to love that. I'm going to go with the

Maggie Kimberl (55:04)
Absolutely.

Jessie (55:05)
Yeah. And that's the thing. I mean, for me, it adds a little spice and, um, I really like it. Um, you know, it's fun. Yeah. Yeah. That's really, really awesome. Um, I guess it's be mean to, uh, ask what your favorite is. So I won't do that. Yeah, that's okay. I don't, I don't want to put you in that position because I know you, you love everybody in the industry, so, um.

Maggie Kimberl (55:11)
I like really herbal ryes.

Oh, you can ask.

Well, my official line when somebody asks me what my favorite is, is whatever you're buying.

Jessie (55:29)
Yep, exactly. But do you have a, do you have a style? Is Ry your favorite or is there?

Maggie Kimberl (55:35)
I really don't have a favorite style. You know, like I judge a lot of spirits competitions, cocktail competitions. I go to a lot of different distilleries. I'm excited about American single malt, but you know, obviously like bourbon has my heart as a tried and true Kentucky gal. And you know, I really love rye whiskey. I think that rye whiskey has a lot to do with the resurgence of the cocktail culture.

and getting us back into decent cocktails instead of the day glow green shelf stable sour mix era which was just awful. So I appreciate, whenever people are like, what's your favorite this or that, I'm like, you know what? Like I just, I really appreciate the hard work and the blood, sweat and tears that goes into.

Jessie (56:07)
I'm sorry.

Maggie Kimberl (56:22)
This is not an easy industry to come into, right? Like you can't build a distillery and flick a switch and start making a product that you can sell. You build a distillery and then you make your product and then you put it in a barrel and you put it in a warehouse and you store it for six years before you sell it. You know, and that's like, nobody, you don't like make a Ford.

Jessie (56:24)
Mm-hmm. Very capital intensive. Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (56:49)
truck and put it in a lot for four years while it ages. You know, like that's, it's kind of crazy, right? So like,

Jessie (56:53)
No. It is.

Maggie Kimberl (56:57)
I think a lot of the people in this industry are a little crazy, little unconventional. And that's, I think that's, that's why I found my people.

Jessie (57:04)
Yeah, I like that. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, and it's a community too that you found yourself that you loved and they loved you back and it just kind of fit into, you know, who you are and what you wanted to do. And I think that's super cool. And I love the story you told us about the realization of travel, how it kind of came full circle and on its own without even really, I mean, expecting that, I think.

Maggie Kimberl (57:08)
Absolutely.

Jessie (57:25)
Right? So, um, so do you write about different bourbon trails and like where to stay and like stuff, anything like that?

Maggie Kimberl (57:27)
Only by accident.

So the where to stay piece, you know, like I have visited other states. The only place where I have been invited where they actually took us to multiple distilleries is Virginia. And so I did do a piece about that. I have done articles about, you know, different distillery trails and what's available because I think that a lot of people don't realize that there is anything else out there other than the Kentucky Bourbon Trail.

and there are bourbon trails in Colorado in

Arkansas, I think in there definitely in Virginia, New York State is a big one. Texas obviously, I don't know if I said Colorado already, I'm really excited about Colorado. There's some stuff kind of percolating in California. The California distilleries I've only been to one and that was Blinking Owl. It was really great.

Jessie (58:15)
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Maggie Kimberl (58:30)
They're doing a great job out there. I need to get up into Northern California because in the Napa region, Napa

Jessie (58:37)
Okay.

Maggie Kimberl (58:37)
and Sonoma, there are a ton of distilleries, and a lot of them are doing American single malts, which is just absolutely fabulous.

Jessie (58:44)
Interesting.

Wow, I didn't know that. That's interesting. I gotta get out there. I really do. I've been out there for work a couple of times, but not just to go and discover, you know, different wines and I didn't know that that was happening out there too.

Maggie Kimberl (58:48)
Yeah.

Oh yeah, well, and I went to a distillery in Portland, Oregon. There are several distilleries out there, but again, I only was able to visit the one on that trip. Washington State, several distilleries there. There's just some really interesting stuff happening all over the country right now.

Jessie (59:12)
Yeah, I love it. I think it's, I think, you know, there's enough room for everybody. You know, there's enough love. And like you said, look to, um, from the locals perspective, that's how you fell in love with bourbon and Kentucky. So, you know, you have other people in Texas and, you know, Oregon, Washington, California that are, you know, want to do the same thing.

Maggie Kimberl (59:16)
Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Jessie (59:32)
support their local distilleries. You know, Dallas has a lot too, not distilleries, but we have, you know, breweries and some wineries and whatnot. And so it's always kind of fun to support, you know, your local breweries. Yeah. So is there anything that, uh, we missed or that you want to say to the audience before we sign off?

Maggie Kimberl (59:41)
Oh yeah.

Absolutely.

I mean, I think, you know, obviously I have to say drink responsibly. If you shoot it, you only get to taste it once. That's, that's...

Jessie (59:57)
That's true.

That's, and that's a bummer with bourbon. You drink it. You gotta enjoy it.

Maggie Kimberl (59:59)
It really is. Like I was doing a tasting someplace one time and somebody I knew walked up and was like, oh bourbon, I hate this stuff. And I was just like, of course you hate it if that's how you drink it. So

take your time, learn to enjoy it, stay hydrated, don't do anything stupid. Those are a lot of the things. But really, you know, most people live

Jessie (1:00:18)
Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (1:00:25)
within a couple hours of a distillery now. So if you think this might be something that you wanna start exploring, find out who your local producers are, get to know them, go visit them, learn the process in your own backyard. And then if you wanna level up and come to Kentucky, you kinda already have, you know, a lot of people say, oh, I like bourbon, but I only care about Kentucky. And like, you know, really, like as much as I love to hear that, I also want you to know there are a lot of people making really awesome stuff probably also in your backyard.

Jessie (1:00:36)
Yep.

Right. Well, um, I know Garrison Brothers, uh, in South Texas, they, I think they spent time with Beam, I mean, they're teaching. Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (1:00:59)
Oh yeah, well, and a lot of people do. A lot of people get talent

from the Kentucky industry. Mylam and Green there in Texas also. Irene Holmes is she worked at Beam and Heather Green worked at the Flatiron Room in New York. And these are two people in the industry who have amazing talent, who are running that. But really, like Iron Root Republic and Denison, Texas, which nobody's ever heard of, they've won best.

best corn whiskey in the world once, and world's best bourbon twice, a Texas whiskey. So, I mean, there's a lot of really amazing stuff happening in your own backyard if you're willing to go look for it. Absolutely.

Jessie (1:01:28)
You're kidding. Yeah, I need to get up there. It's

not that far. Well, I didn't know that. I didn't, I did not realize that. Thank you for sharing that. So I do have one bonus question. It's kind of a fun question, but if you were to win the lotto, doesn't matter million, 10 million doesn't matter.

Maggie Kimberl (1:01:42)
Absolutely.

Okay.

Jessie (1:01:51)
Would you do anything different or what would you do differently? I love that.

Maggie Kimberl (1:01:56)
I really don't think I would do anything differently, honestly. I mean, I enjoy

what I do. Obviously, if I'm doing it for dozens of dollars, I would very much enjoy to keep doing it and not have to worry about money.

Jessie (1:02:07)
So you wouldn't open a distillery. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Maggie Kimberl (1:02:09)
I mean, people ask me all the time, like, would you ever consider working for a distillery? And I've had offers to come work for distilleries or to consult and all that kind of stuff. And I always say, if I find the right opportunity, I will.

I definitely don't want to get myself into a situation where it stops being fun.

Jessie (1:02:26)
Gone. Exactly. I see you more being like a retailer with all the different bourbons and doing more educational pieces and having dinners and that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I mean, my two favorite jobs that don't pay, they don't pay.

Maggie Kimberl (1:02:35)
I actually kind of miss working in retail. I miss having regular customers and having that interaction on a regular basis. Yeah, that's something to think about.

Jessie (1:02:47)
Um, I worked at Total and I love talking about wine and spirits from all over the world all day long. I just loved it. I lost weight. I dropped like three sizes because you're going up and down on ladders. You're on your feet. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, my other favorite was, uh, a bar here, a wine bar called Cork where they didn't have food, they just had like cheese plates, but they had cards where you'd...

Maggie Kimberl (1:02:57)
Because you're walking all the time. Yep.

Jessie (1:03:09)
where you just go and get an ounce of this, an ounce of that. I think there was like 25 wines on tap, but, uh, it was really, it's a great experience, but you know, getting home at two and then, you know, it doesn't work out with the other person because they're, they're, they're normal business hours and so it's just, it's, yeah, it's hard. Um, but I, yeah, I love retail. I loved it a lot. I it's fun. It's fun. Just talking about what you're passionate about.

Maggie Kimberl (1:03:14)
Oh, that's very cool.

It's a hard life.

Yeah.

My feet also hurt thinking about it, so. Ha ha ha.

Jessie (1:03:34)
I know, I know, same, same, absolutely the same. Yeah, for sure. Well, you've been an awesome guest. I love your passion. I hope we can meet soon and, you know, definitely have you back on the podcast again. Well, the plan is we got to, I got to plan a tour with some friends and just go for like three or four days.

Maggie Kimberl (1:03:47)
Well, if you ever come to Kentucky, let me know.

Totally.

Jessie (1:03:55)
and just

hit as many places as we can and and just have some fun and oh that'd be great yeah i appreciate that because i only know what i know which is the places that i you know the people i've worked with so you know outside of that like i haven't been to heaven hill i really want to go see jimmy and um you know wild turkey he's amazing

Maggie Kimberl (1:03:58)
Well, let me know if you have any questions when you're planning, I'm happy to help.

Jimmy

still sits in the visitor center every now and then, but he's getting up there, so get well again is good.

Jessie (1:04:19)
I know

I know I gotta go I I had the pleasure of working with him in amazing express a couple of times I've actually got to work with Jimmy and I'm telling you that man is the last person to leave the bar every time you know because we we'd be there from seven to seven then we go eat and we just hang out it was the best

Maggie Kimberl (1:04:24)
such a wonderful man.

and

truly one of the kindest, most wonderful people you'll ever meet.

Jessie (1:04:41)
Absolutely.

Yeah, I just adore that man. He's so cool. Such a hero in a sense, right? You just look up to him so much. I heard his grandson on another podcast and it's a lot to look up to, right? Being in his shoes. Oh, really? Okay. Okay.

Maggie Kimberl (1:04:47)
Totally.

you should talk to his granddaughter Joanne Street. She is a hoot and a half.

Jessie (1:05:00)
Joanne Street, okay. I'll have to find her. What is she? Does she work for the company?

Maggie Kimberl (1:05:04)
does she's their national brand ambassador now but she started off working summers as a tour guide at the distillery absolutely

Jessie (1:05:07)
Perfect. So she knows, she knows where everything is.

Oh, that's really cool. Thank you for the tip. I will, I'll reach out to her. Alrighty. Well, thank you so much. Take care. Okay. Bye bye. Okay.

Maggie Kimberl (1:05:22)
Thank you, take care, bye bye.