🍷 Unlock the Secrets of Wine Tasting! 🍇 Sensory Science with Isabelle Lesschaeve Wine Expert Tips

📢I talk🎙️with Isabelle Lesschaeve Owner of InnoVinum Academy! 👏🍷 🎇 🎉 ✨ 👏 🥂  😁

 🍷 Unlocking the Secrets of Wine Sensory Science! 🔬 How to Train Your Palate & Decode Flavors Like a Pro! 🍇 

Watch now! 🚀✨ @ThirstyThursdaysat3PMEST

🍷 Ever wondered how to train your palate like a wine expert? 🍇 Discover the science of taste, aroma, & sensory analysis with Isabelle Lesschaeve! 🔬✨ Watch now & elevate your wine game! 🥂

🎙 Join us for an insightful chat with wine sensory expert Isabelle Lesschaeve! 🍷 Discover how sensory science helps winemakers, industry pros, and wine lovers understand and enhance flavors!

🔥 Key Takeaways:
✔ COVID-19 & Smell Loss: 🦠 How people regained their sense of taste & smell.
✔ Sensory Science Explained: 🔬 What it is and how it helps winemakers.
✔ Consumer Preferences: 📊 Why most drinkers prefer fruity wines & how trends are evolving.
✔ How to Train Your Palate: 🏋️‍♂️ Simple daily exercises to improve your wine-tasting skills.
✔ The Future of Wine Innovation: 🚀 Using data-driven insights to improve customer experience.

🔔 Don’t miss this episode! Subscribe & explore the fascinating world of sensory science!

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Host Jessie Ott's Profile on LinkedIn

Chapters

• 3:06 The Importance of Smell in Health and Enjoyment
• 5:49 Isabelle's Journey from France to the US Wine Industry
• 8:29 Understanding Consumer Preferences in Wine
• 11:08 The Role of Sensory Science in Winemaking
• 13:47 Adapting to Changing Consumer Demands
• 16:23 Building a Sensory Program for Wineries
• 19:10 Capturing Consumer Feedback Effectively
• 21:48 The Art of Communication in Wine Tasting
• 24:20 Integrating Sales Techniques with Sensory Insights
• 26:10 Resources for Sensory Science
• 26:58 Engaging with Wine Club Members
• 29:09 Utilizing Data for Consumer Insights
• 30:30 Consulting Services for Wineries
• 32:56 Training Wine Enthusiasts
• 35:12 Mentorship and Career Development
• 38:51 Addressing Industry Pain Points
• 40:44 Optimism in the Wine Industry
• 44:22 The Importance of Sensory Science
• 46:17 Personal Passions and Future Aspirations

Transcript

Jessie Ott (00:29)
Hello everybody and welcome to Thursday, Thursday. I'm Jessie Ott and I have Isabelle Lesschaeve wine sensory. consultant and educator. Hello, Isabelle. Welcome.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (00:35)
Yes!

Hello,

Jessie Thank you for having me. Delighted to be here.

Jessie Ott (00:44)
Yeah, you know, I guess we met on LinkedIn, what, a couple of years ago. I was very intrigued with what you were doing and I had, you know, like many of us lost our palette during COVID and you know, I ate like a mango and it tasted like popcorn. I mean, I had the weirdest, the weirdest transition back and our, our scientist math friend is like,

you should build a spreadsheet of all the things and start tasting it and tell, you know, writing it down. And then when I, had that conversation, you're like, that's exactly it. Do you want to explain a little bit about why that is?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (01:18)
about the way that we perceive aromas or what happened to you during COVID? There are like two questions.

Jessie Ott (01:23)
Yeah, guess that whole,

isn't it kind of like a sensory neuron thing where you have to relearn texture and taste and flavors?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (01:32)
Yeah. So what happened to many COVID patients is that while they lost completely their sense of smell, their olfactory receptors that are the top of your nose were basically burned and there was no connection between the molecules that were reaching your nose and your brain that basically tell you, that's a mango. And then it started to heal and the neural network started to reconnect.

But what happened, it's for some people, it didn't reconnect the right way. So when you were smelling mango, yes. And I think it's called parosmia. You smell something that is a mango, but you detect popcorn. Or people were smelling coffee and it smelled like something awful. So the way that people, yeah, yeah.

Jessie Ott (02:04)
no, really?

I still smell smoke from time to time. I know that's something too. don't know why.

It's so irritating. It's like, no one's smoking around here. Why does it smell like smoke?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (02:27)
Well, because yet those circuits are not, you know, completely rebuilt. So the best way to rebuild those connections, I was told by neuroscientists and, and, and smell disorder specialist is to train your nose and smell a mango and telling yourself, this is a mango. I imagine a mango. And every day you do that on two, two to three aromas two to three odors And then once, you know, it's reconnected.

go to the next level. That's how they were able to help people, you know, affected by this parosmia thing to regain their sense of smell and, you know, have, you know, some consonants between what they were seeing and what they were eating. I know.

Jessie Ott (02:55)
next one.

That's pretty cool.

Yeah,

wild. It's wild stuff. I remember when I first noticed it happened, I wasn't really eating much more than like just your protein powder and I got really hungry for pizza. And so my wife made me a, cause we had a bunch of basil, she made homemade pesto and it, the whole thing just tasted like garlic. That is one thing I didn't lose. It's like it was really in my face. It was funny.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (03:31)
Yeah. In your face. Yeah.

Well, our sense of smell is an amazing sense that unfortunately people discovered it existed when they lost it. And, and I think it's, you know, it's a campaign that all of us sensory scientists really want to, you know, to claim and to advocate for because a sense of smell is not only important for enjoyment of food and wine, but also beverages, but it's also

important for general health. When you have an infection, you lose it. also, scientists from the Monell Research Center in Philadelphia have also demonstrated and have lots of evidence that when you start having a decline in your sense of smell, in your sensitivity to detect certain odors, then it's an alert to probably neurological disease.

It's kind of the early symptoms that should tell you, have to consult and maybe making sure that everything is all right. But because we don't spend a lot of time being aware of what we smell and taste, well, we lose these early alert signals and pay attention to your sense of smell. It's very important just for your enjoyment, but your general health.

Jessie Ott (04:47)
Yeah, that's actually really interesting. know, it's those things we take for granted, you know, every day. So, Isabel, where are you calling from today?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (04:53)
Yeah.

I'm calling from Atlanta, Georgia in the southeast of the US.

Jessie Ott (05:01)
Okay. I'm in Orlando. Not so, so far. Not really close, but not so, so far. Nice. Yeah. It's... good. What part of Atlanta are you in?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (05:04)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it here.

I live in Midtown, so yeah, I'm a city person, but we have a nice park and lots of places we can walk because being a European, I think that will be your next question, being a European, I like to walk wherever I want to go.

Jessie Ott (05:14)
Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. We're,

we're my friend from Iowa's here and she loves to walk and so, and she loves trains. And so we have a really nice train system here and she was just tickled. did it. We did it a couple of days ago. We're going to do it this afternoon and head to the opposite direction. And, and it'll be a three mile walk by the time, you know, we get there, but it's like, yeah, that's very European. It's pretty normal. And it's a pretty cool part of town, but, so where are you from?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (05:47)
Hmm? Yeah. Exactly.

Originally I'm from France. I was born and raised in Reims, as the British said, in Champagne. I was in France for my first 30 years and then I moved to North America.

Jessie Ott (06:01)
Okay, champagne area.

Okay.

Very cool. I spent one year in Wren. They used to call it A-Cool Superior to Commerce. They said it was the number two student city after Toulouse and we had a blast. They had discounts for us every, I mean, it was such a great experience. I wouldn't change it for the world.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (06:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

That's good. Well, I'm glad you had a great time.

Jessie Ott (06:38)
Yeah, well, France is

a pretty remarkable place. Our school was right across the street from the Perfecture, so there were all kinds of fires and protests and stuff. It was great. I loved it.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (06:51)
Well,

striking is a second sport, second national sport in France, unfortunately. Or fortunately, I mean, we like to fight for our rights.

Jessie Ott (06:56)
Hahaha!

That's right. You got to stand up for yourself. Fight for that. Fight for those rights. For sure. For sure. Well, what brought you to the U S?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (07:04)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yes. So I mean, terms of my background, I studied agriculture, studied food science back in France. And then after I defended my PhD in sensory science, had an offer I couldn't really refuse. was to move across the pond and start the sensory department at what was at the time, ENJ Gallo Winery. So it was really to...

Jessie Ott (07:34)
Wow! So you

jumped right in to wine then.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (07:39)
Yeah, interestingly.

Jessie Ott (07:41)
How did they connect that?

How did you get connected with that?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (07:45)
Through, you know, through our network, you know, we always say that our network is our net worth. That was really through colleagues who were in California and heard about the job opening and the fact that they were starting this new program. And they knew that, you know, a good experience in France in the research institute I was working on, but I was looking for something different.

Jessie Ott (08:08)
Yeah.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (08:08)
We started talking and the rest happened. And I landed in San Francisco on a Thursday at the end of November and I had no clue what Thanksgiving was, just how acculturated I was about the tradition. But I learned very quickly.

Jessie Ott (08:25)
Yeah. Well, that's a good one.

So what did you do for Gallo?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (08:29)
so I studied their sensory research program. So like many sensory scientists, we are embedded in the research and development department. And we collaborate with chemists, microbiologists, winemakers to really understand, you know, whatever treatment they do, whatever experiments they do, we assess the end product and basically respond to two main questions, you know.

are the treatments they make in the vineyards or in the cellar produce wines that taste different? And if so, how different they are on which characteristics? is just the flavor, the texture, the structure, the mouthfeel, the taste. Try to understand very specifically, and I would use the word objectively, what those differences are. So it's really a science in the sense that we collect data in a

systematic way, not around the table and the lauder is the one who is right. No, we have specific protocols and we ensure that we collect enough data points so that we can analyze the data with statistics and basically give back results with an opportunity for the person or the team who started this research to make a decision.

Jessie Ott (09:31)
That's cool.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (09:47)
Yes, there is a difference. No, there is no difference. And we have some data to support that. So that's what I started at Gallo supporting the R &D department and then moved on to work more closely with our consumer research partners to not only to start to understand consumer preference, what they like in the wines and what they didn't like. And not just asking people because

We learned very quickly that what people say is not always what they actually feel or experience. having them, and sometimes they cannot, yeah, most of the time it's difficult to express what you like or don't like in a product. But we collected their sentiment after they were tasting wines. And then we translated that into our sensory measurements to help the winemakers change maybe.

Jessie Ott (10:19)
or they can't articulate it.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (10:38)
some of the aspects of the winemaking, the oak usage, or if they were looking at specific yeast component to make the decisions they had to make. really understand the products at its core and how doing different types of experiments affect the product, but also how it impacts consumers' preferences and appreciation of the product.

Jessie Ott (11:02)
have you seen in terms of customer preferences that's changed that kind of surprises you?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (11:08)
Well, and I think it's still the case, but the majority of consumers, you know, in the price range of 10, you know, $20, even at the time, you know, they like fruity and sweet wines, you know, not too oaky and rough on the palate. You know, I said as transient because that's the sensory word, but you know, wine,

when experts would say, it's tannic because it's due to the tannins. So most of the people would prefer sweet wines. I know that in the wine world, when people are thinking about sweet wines, just think about maybe white Zinfandel, which, you know, had its supporters. But, you know, a lot of sweet sensations are just evoked by fruity aromas.

Jessie Ott (11:53)
At its time.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (12:01)
because people taste maybe some jammy character and it makes them think of sweet and they perceive it as sweet. So that's also the magic of flavor perception.

Jessie Ott (12:02)
Yeah.

And when it comes to flavor in the vineyard or while they're aging, what kind of components can winemakers use to adjust those different taste profiles?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (12:25)
Well, I'm definitely not a technician on that part, but our role is really to identify those changes, those perceptual changes. And then they use their tools to adjust their ways of doing. So I cannot really comment on that part. But for example, we did a large study on different oak components to learn.

Jessie Ott (12:40)
Yeah.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (12:47)
how if you use shavings or cubes or staves or oak barrels, what are the different components, not only in terms of perception, but also chemistry. And that's how you learn, building all those data to start having this knowledge base for the future.

Jessie Ott (13:03)
Yeah, no, yeah, 100%. So it's so super interesting. So what happened after that, Role?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (13:11)
Well, I got married and moved to Canada.

Jessie Ott (13:16)
You really meant North America. I

was wondering where Canada was going to show up.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (13:21)
Well, I mean, you it was the beginning of the millennial and we wanted to go back to a more European culture. So Montreal seemed like a great choice. So I set up there and did some consulting for wineries in North America, but elsewhere as well to help them start their sensory programs. And I have to say that, you know, the sensory program, you know,

can apply to small operations. It doesn't have to think about it. need to be huge operations like Galo or other companies. You can implement very simple sensory practices in small operations to start collecting good data to help you make decisions. So I did this for a few years and then joined the Cool Climate, Inology, and VT Culture Institute at Brock University in Ontario, Canada.

where I led the Institute for four years and then moved to another research institute where I was in charge of product innovation and consumer insights, focusing more on horticulture products. So I applied sensory science to beverages, wine in particular, but also vegetables, fruits, even ornamental plants. you can really, it's all about

studying the interaction between human senses. So us people, how we interact with a product through our senses. So our vision or smell or touch, et cetera. So it was a great experience. then as you can see through my journey, I like change and I like to learn and experience and push the boundaries.

Jessie Ott (14:57)
Yeah, learning is great.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (14:59)
I moved back to the US to work for the Coca-Cola company. And that's why I'm still in Atlanta, where I worked as a principal scientist, again, you know, to support research and development and consumer research for beverages, mainly non-sparkling beverages or juice, coffee, dairy products. And yeah, and the most recent...

appointment was for a food ingredient company called Cary, where I also led the global team to really develop their methodologies and support their customers in creating tasty and nutritious foods. But my heart is in wine. So the most recent move is to go back.

to the wine industry to support the wine industry, both the producers and the trade, to really leverage the power of sensory science, this methodologies to help better understand the products, but also how people react to the products and those consumers that seem to be a bit different from 20 years ago. And how do we talk to them? And how can we really help deliver the experience that they are looking for?

Jessie Ott (16:04)
huh.

Yeah, it's definitely time to evolve and figure out, you know, how do you connect to a group that doesn't want to drink quite as much and less alcohol and less occasions and, you know, really engage with them. I mean, I think that there are a few pretty young brands out there that have been able to encapsulate that because of social media, right? And a good brand.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (16:24)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jessie Ott (16:39)
And it doesn't suck. I mean, I'm not saying that's the formula, but if it's good enough, people aren't wanting that $45 cab necessarily. They just want wine that's good to drink with your friends.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (16:55)
Yeah, and that's really what it is about is, you know, the product fit to the context of consumption. You know, there is a place for the $45 cab in their life, but for every day, you know, that, you know, we have been young, all of us. So, no, I think it's important to understand that.

Jessie Ott (17:03)
Yeah.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (17:16)
this young age, you want to experiment and you you have a different lifestyle. So you experiment, you want to see what fits with your lifestyle. And you know, maybe tradition, you know, the wines, the way we approach it or the way we sell it doesn't fit, you know, their lifestyle. So how can we better understand what's needed? you know, I'm not a marketer, but it might just be a way of communicating differently.

or presenting the product differently. I don't think people like to be lectured about wine and how it was made unless you have a desire to learn about it. So how can we make the wine approachable when people visit tasting rooms or ask for sommelier for recommendation? Start listening to your consumers. I think that's what is very important.

decode and understand and observe what the consumers really want and are telling you. And the challenge is to interpret that in terms of products without, again, appear to be arrogant or, know, old school. Okay. Yeah.

Jessie Ott (18:21)
Old school.

Can you explain what a journey is with a winery that you would work with and how that program works? Because it sounds like that's really kind of the heart of what you really love to do is to help companies see the benefit of the sensory program and how it can help find new consumers.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (18:35)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, thank you for asking that. What I recommend is, first is letting me observe in the testing room, almost being a guest in your testing room to go through the experience that you really want your visitors to have. And then I can see opportunities to maybe change the way you present the product or talk about the product. I think also the...

The biggest opportunity that is not leveraged at this point is capturing the comment of the visitors or the tasters. I know I heard people say, well, it's so personal. We cannot really use that. But the information is in the pattern of all this data that you are collecting. And as a sensory scientist, when some consumers are expressing a certain way,

You can start prompting what it means, what it reminds you of, what color does it evoke, what imagery does it evoke. And then you help the staff behind the bar understand what the consumers are meaning. But more importantly, we need to capture this information in a simple way. It doesn't have to be fancy.

you know, every so often to look at how each wine has been described by those visitors and what it means and how it does translate into the sales as well. So you start seeing, you know, what redrives the taste preference of those visitors and how they react to the pitch that you are doing behind the bar. I think when we were talking earlier on about the younger generation, they might just want to have a great experience.

And marketers would say that that experience needs to be memorable and to develop some loyalty in the brand. they may not buy two cases on the day off, but they will remember that experience later on. And maybe when they will have the discretionary money to buy wine, they will remember of that experience. So that's how I approach that.

Jessie Ott (20:51)
Yeah.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (20:56)
know, be in the shoes of your consumers and start assessing what I think could be improved and if everything is right, how can you capture this data? But also, how are you testing as a group in the winery? Do you capture as well those testing data in a robust and non-biased way, meaning that as soon as we know what we are testing or what we are testing for?

Our brain is creating the framework, the checklist of what should be happening. Whereas my approach is let your senses tell you what is happening. Just trust your senses. And to trust your senses, you have to educate your senses to be really focused and mindful about what is happening, what they perceive. Like we were talking earlier on about

Jessie Ott (21:35)
Yeah.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (21:48)
smelling mangoes every day. How do you develop this wine flavor language within your company so that you all have the same wine language, so you understand each other and you can communicate that, your brand signature, your brand flavor signature to the visitors, to your customers and have this, building this connection through the language.

Jessie Ott (22:12)
That's really cool. How long does it take you to kind of develop that program?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (22:18)
Well, I think it's a matter of these many years of experience. But an audit can take half a day. And after that, to develop the program, it's about understanding the circumstances of the winery and the testing room and see how can we maybe embed some simple training, simple steps in the onboarding of the new staff.

Jessie Ott (22:42)
yeah, great idea.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (22:43)
we are going to hire for the summer in the Northern Hemisphere. So maybe it's an opportunity to train the staff in being just very honest and authentic about what they perceive, gain a bit of knowledge on how to describe what they experience and link that to the product characteristics so that they can speak very authentically.

who will replace that word about the wine to the consumers and the customers. Rather than learning the technical shit by heart and just repeating what is on there, rather than genuinely saying, this is what I perceive. Maybe you will call it differently, but that's how the winemaker wanted to express the wines.

Jessie Ott (23:04)
You

over

Isabelle Lesschaeve (23:26)
I find this and find that, what about you? And then really have these conversations rather than a top-down delivery of the technical sheet.

Jessie Ott (23:33)
Yeah.

I'm gonna, you spurred two books that I can't remember off the top of my head that I wanna talk about because I find it fascinating that you were talking about...

using, you know, we're talking about the sensory, right? But then memorizing exactly, you know, the right way to express what that winemaker wants to be told about the wine and how it translates into sales and how you're observing and getting in with the consumers. And so there's two books that I read that remind me of this. Okay.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (24:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Jessie Ott (24:15)
So have

you ever heard of Building a Story Brand by Donald Miller?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (24:19)
Absolutely. Love it. Who's the hero of the story? Yes.

Jessie Ott (24:20)
That to me is like, yes, the hero of

the story, he's like, give a $5 bill to everyone who can remember your tagline. That's how important it is. Right? Cause you're building a brand, you're building a story brand by this story, by this winemaker of this, the expression of this wine. And the second one is the Manside Sales 101 by Bob Muesda and...

Isabelle Lesschaeve (24:33)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jessie Ott (24:50)
Hold on.

I'll fix this.

I don't, I just, find it fascinating with Craig Engel, with Craig, okay, Bob Muesna and Greg Engel. So this book talks about how when you have a sale, kind of like what you're talking about, when you are in the tasting room and you are learning exactly what they're saying,

Isabelle Lesschaeve (25:15)
Mm-hmm.

Jessie Ott (25:20)
What they do when they make a sale, and he's built and sold a gazillion companies with this technique, but what they do is they ask a million questions after the sale to find out, what was the real reason you bought it from XYZ or whatever the case may be. so getting that articulation from the customer right then and there at point of purchase is really important because that can change your whole marketing plan and how you go and approach those businesses. So I love how

Isabelle Lesschaeve (25:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jessie Ott (25:48)
What you're doing ties into the two really big pieces, obviously, of building a company marketing sales.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (25:56)
Yeah, well, it's so important to build that rapport. And I know there's so much time in the testing room and people might have a schedule when they come and visit. But at the same time, it's such an opportunity to learn from the consumers, hear how they speak, without intimidating them. You don't want to...

to block them and just hear, know, yeah, it's fine. yes, I like it. But, you know, it's really about building that rapport and learn from them. But, you know, it requires a bit of training into, you know, what prompts you want to use to get to, especially if you want to learn what they like about your wine or what they don't like.

And that's okay. It's a learning experience to have them talk to you in a genuine way.

Jessie Ott (26:45)
Yeah, I love what you said there, prompts, because my whole life is chat GPT and I'm constantly learning prompts. But you're right, you got to prompt people to, you got to figure out how to ask the question that's interpreted in the way that you can get an articulated answer. And I like that a lot.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (26:50)
I know.

Eh.

Yeah.

And, know, if you don't have time in the tasting room, mean, many wineries have winery, know, wine clubs and wine clubs, can create, you know, you have already a dedicated audience, committed audience that if you do events or online tasting, that's a, you know, great focus group type of situation where you can, you know, have these conversations and, you know, they taste your wine. You can have even more insights about those people who committed to

Jessie Ott (27:12)
Yeah. Yep.

Yeah.

Yes.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (27:35)
be part of your club. What do they like? What do they experience? Is it just a product or is it something else that you do that is so special that you want to make sure you keep doing? So these are great opportunities for the wineries who are willing to do something a bit different and experiment with that.

Jessie Ott (27:42)
Right.

Yeah. And also what I like about the target of being in the tasting room is that those people chose to be there. Right? So you have already an engaged audience and they should, they, hopefully they will give you some great, great insights into, why are, why are you here? You know, you could start as basic as that, you know, and really dig in and, get some great insights.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (28:03)
Mm Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Well, we hope for the best, but there are tools. That's the good news. There are tools if people want to experiment. And especially on the subject that, you know, we say it's so subjective, know, the personal taste and preferences. Yes, it is. But we look at, you know, patterns and we can also help understand what people are looking for. And, you know, link that to your

all your ecosystem of data management. I mean, I was at the DTC, the Direct-to-Consumer Symposium and at the Unified Symposium recently. It's all about using the data, looking at your data to make decisions. And what I realized is that one component that we don't have is what the consumers are telling you. Of course, sales are a great proxy of what consumers think.

Jessie Ott (29:09)
Right?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (29:15)
But they are not telling you what works for them, what doesn't work. So I think there is an opportunity to add this dimension into your data dashboard. Understand your visitor's experience, understand your wine club member's experience, and any opportunities you have to pour the wines and get one-on-one feedback is an opportunity to learn.

Jessie Ott (29:35)
Yeah, well, 100%. So if I was a winery and I wanted to hire you for your services, how does it work?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (29:45)
Yeah, well, first thing is, you let's have a chat. I want to understand, know, what prompted you to, I'm a scientist, I always think, you know, what's your objective? What's your goal? And there are different routes to get to what you want to achieve, depending on, you know, the size of the winery, the resources that you have, etc., the type of support I can provide.

Jessie Ott (29:50)
what my objectives would be.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (30:08)
So let's start by a chat, know, let's book 20, 30 minutes and go from there. And after that, I will recommend, you know, what I can do. Let's focus on one particular, the most urgent aspect or that would, you know, the low hanging fruit that might be, you know, the easiest thing and go from there. So it can be, you know, training to the staff. could be, you know,

an audit in the tasting room or virtually, you know, if you have a wine club event online, you know, it can be online and be part of that. And then, you know, it could become a program, an ongoing program to help, you know, fix a few things here and there. But that's always start by a conversation.

Jessie Ott (30:36)
yeah.

Okay, great. And so in terms of the product that you have or that you'll be a consultant with them and help them get through that whole process, if they want to build a sensory program, they can, or you can kind of manage it then as a consultancy over time.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (31:08)
Well, I can help definitely build the main components. After that, running the program is a different aspect. But we have a large network of sensory scientists and agencies that can help out, or finding students in different universities who can come and do an internship, or try to start. We can start small and build on.

Jessie Ott (31:13)
Yeah.

very cool. Okay.

I love that idea.

What a great experience for someone.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (31:32)
Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm here as a guide, as a support, you know, thinking outside the box and, and I'm not here to sell a all in one solution. I'm here to see what can we do with what you have and, and go from there because sometimes it's just being aware of, you know, what you're doing and how it impacted the consumer's experience.

And sometimes you don't realize, you know, all the things that we throw at people, how we can block them or make them think about particularly about something particular, basically bias their judgment. You know, it's, all about psychology, you know, interaction, human, human interaction. So I think sometimes you are so focused about products and sell that maybe we.

Jessie Ott (32:08)
Yeah.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (32:23)
we lose the dimension of human connection.

Jessie Ott (32:28)
Yeah, a hundred percent. But I think that's also what makes our industry great is because we still do have that human connection. not selling toothpaste or brushes or some boring stuff. We're selling an experience. We're selling a lifestyle in some cases and that's what makes it fun. But I agree when you get shareholders and you get this and you get that and you get so focused on

Isabelle Lesschaeve (32:32)
Yeah.

Jessie Ott (32:53)
You know, sales, forgot why you did it in the first place, right? Like, why are we doing this? You know? And, and so, yeah, that's great. I love that. Is there anything else about, what you're doing now that you want to share with the audience before we move on to, you?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (32:56)
Yeah, maybe.

Well, I'm also working with consumers, with wine enthusiasts who want to develop their palate. what I'm doing is a bit of what we evoked earlier on is, you know, help them train their nose to be more discerning. So by adopting very simple practices at home, working with aroma standards and very simple, you know, tests.

It's like playing the piano, have to train your nose to identify those aromas and those states and to be able to be more precise when you want to write tasting notes. So I work with wine enthusiasts, willing to pass a certification usually. But again, this can be done with winery staff at the level that they wish to have just a basic understanding of.

sensory components of the wines and how in your portfolio the wines differ. Again, rather than taking the testing sheet, how do you experience the differences between those wines so that you can talk to your customers or your consumers with confidence?

Jessie Ott (34:13)
Nice. Okay. So how do they get in touch with you?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (34:14)
Mm-hmm.

Well, on my website, it's inovinum, I-N-N-O-V-I-N-U-M dot com, vinum, wine in Latin and inovative. And I'm on LinkedIn as well. So that's why you will find me most of the time.

Jessie Ott (34:26)
Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, that's, well, that's obviously how we met. Yeah. And kept in touch. I'm so excited for you. I'm very, very happy that you're back in the wine side doing the, passion. you know, that's always a great feeling. think, I think to your point, you moved around and experienced a lot of different industries and different flavor profiles. Obviously food, beverage, sodas are completely different than wine. So that's pretty exciting. And I'm happy for you that you landed where you're.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (34:35)
you

Yeah.

Jessie Ott (35:02)
Right where you're supposed to be. Yeah, I understand the passion for wine. Trust me. Trust me. I love wine too.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (35:03)
Thank you. Appreciate.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jessie Ott (35:12)
So do you have any mentors that you want to talk about that helped you along your journey?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (35:18)
Yes, of course. When I started back in France, there were two people who were instrumental in my career, Sylvie Sanschou and Pascal Schlich, are renowned sensory scientists and statisticians who really helped me basically acquire my technical skills. And then moving on to the North America side, I think I was welcomed.

Jessie Ott (35:35)
Nice.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (35:40)
So warmly by Ann Noble, the creator of the Wine Aroma Wheel and UC Davis professor that she's been my friend and my mentor ever since. So I also have the wine aroma wheel if you don't have it. So I purchased her business in 2019, but to me she's the one who also introduced me to other people in the North America wine industry. And that's how I also be able to.

Jessie Ott (35:53)
that is so cool.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (36:10)
survived my cultural shock when I moved from France directly to California at the end of the 90s.

Jessie Ott (36:16)
Yeah, it's definitely different. Well,

San Fran was pretty hip and cool, I think in the nineties. Yeah, it's a little different now. Yeah. What about resources or websites, podcasts, any kind of resources that you recommend?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (36:21)
Yeah, yeah, it was pretty cool. But yeah.

Yeah, I think

for people who want to discover a bit more about sensory science and how it can help you with your work, if you are part of an organization which has an R &D department, I'm pretty sure there is a sensory scientist.

hidden somewhere because they tend to be hidden because they are working so hard to make sure that the product stays good and whatever you develop, you know, it's going to be successful on the market. So, you know, talk to your R &D colleagues and there must be a sensory scientist somewhere. If not, we have a society of sensory professionals. It's a professional organization where, it's for us, but it's also a network that you can tap.

Jessie Ott (36:57)
Hahaha!

Isabelle Lesschaeve (37:18)
upon if you are looking for support in sensory evaluations of your product. If you're a startup and you're looking for, you don't want to build a sensory department, but you're looking for some help. mean, I can always ask me, but this resource is available. As well as the Institute of Food Technologies, they have a sensory and consumer science division where you have lot of many great people sharing their knowledge and expertise.

in terms of podcasts and website, as far as sensory is related, there are not that many. mean, I don't think there are any, that's why I'm thinking of studying one, but, but yeah. So yes, you, you will be my inspiration,

Jessie Ott (37:59)
That's what I did.

Yeah, no, it's so fun. mean, it's a huge passion project for me. It's a lot of work if you want to do both the audio and the video. Apparently YouTube is the number one medium now for podcasts, but audio is also very good. But yeah, if you have any interest, I encourage it because it's giving me access to

my industry that I wouldn't have before because I had been in the military for so long that I lost touch out here. And it's been, I've been able to, you know, like your network you're talking about and meeting people, like amazing people that are doing amazing things. They're so inspirational that I just, I feel lucky that I get to talk to them. And I'm sure you could have some pretty interesting guests on talking about the sensory of how they, you know, both food and wine on how they work behind the scenes.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (38:32)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Jessie Ott (38:54)
You know?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (38:55)
I have my list of possible guests already. Yeah.

Jessie Ott (38:57)
Yeah, just start small. Don't do

what I did and try to do it every week unless you have the time.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (39:05)
Yeah, we'll see. I might pick your brain at some point.

Jessie Ott (39:08)
Sure, no problem.

From your perspective, is there any pain points that you see that maybe what your services can, we kind of talked a little bit about them, but is there anything in particular that you see where your services can kind of help with some of those industry pain points?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (39:21)
Yeah.

Well, I think it's really about becoming more consumer centric. I know maybe it's kind of a cliche to say that, but it's really understanding the people, but also within your company, become a bit more sensory savvy. And when I mean sensory savvy, you know, in the wine industry, we rely a lot on our experts. You know, we are tasting wine.

in different places. And there are lots of things that bias those judgments. And I think it's time that we put a bit, you know, that expertise on the side because it's not longer about making sure the wine is not faulty. I think the winemakers are pretty well trained for that. But it's more about, know, when we want to communicate, it's about, you know, how can we talk about our wine, you know, it's relation to the

the sense of place, it's relation to the occasion, the lifestyle. How can we link those sensory characteristics, those tastes, those mouthfeel, those flavors to these different opportunities, different contexts, and then make the communication and work with your favorite marketers to create that communication. Because as scientists, we are not marketers, but we provide the data.

Jessie Ott (40:44)
The data, yeah.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (40:44)
to both the technical

side and the marketing side so that they can leverage this information. And I really see the sensory science as the bridge between the technical component, the producing component, and the marketing component because we studied the product but the interaction between the people and the product. So we talk to both sides, yes.

Jessie Ott (41:02)
Yeah, that is fascinating. I really

love that. And what do you think is the outlook for the wine industry? I mean, we know you hear you're struggling and whatnot, but do have any?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (41:13)
yeah. Well, I'm very optimistic.

I feel very optimistic because, yes, I've been to these two conferences recently and many presentations studied by, know, sales decline, Gen Z doesn't want your wine. But there were good success stories and the good success stories were about, well, you have data, use the data to see the opportunities.

listen to people, try to experiment with different ways of presenting your products. And those success stories are inspiring. So I think it's about to looking on this side of the equation and what is working rather than becoming depressed. And I realized that the wine sector is fragmented. There are lots of

you know, push back or challenges and hurdles to pass, but at the same time, it's an opportunity to innovate. And innovation doesn't mean to do crazy things, it means to do things differently.

Jessie Ott (42:22)
Yeah, no, absolutely. 100%. The normal or old school way of thinking or doing may not be enough. You just maybe need to tweak things here and there, just like you're saying, you know, just by getting feedback in a very technical way that can equate to, you know, changes that are great enough to get to those customer preferences.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (42:34)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And again, you your tasting room, your wine club, these are venues where you can experiment. Of course, you know, you have to tell your consumers, we are doing a little experiment. You want to participate. And then, you know, you test your new images, your new packaging, you know, your new blend and get feedback and use that feedback in a constructive way.

Jessie Ott (42:48)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (43:07)
not just saying, yes, they like it. No, no. Let's say what they are. Let's listen to what they are saying and maybe collect additional data to go back to the production or marketing side with good insights. That's really what it is about.

Jessie Ott (43:22)
Yeah, and guess he probably could compare that to, I guess, focus groups or feedback on social media and, you know, kind of combine the both and see what makes the most sense, you know, or what seems to be the most consistent response.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (43:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Exactly. It's about looking at patterns of data, how they intersect. you know, as scientists, we have hypotheses. So let's have some hypotheses about, know, why some of the things don't work. Let's see how our solutions might work. And we collect data and we say, okay, do we confirm a hypothesis or not? And we move on, we learn. It's really about that journey.

Jessie Ott (44:06)
Yeah, no, just so much. Isabel, you have been a delight. I thank you for, you know, taking time to sit down with me and talk about your journey. think it's really, you know, you talk about your network of sensory professionals and it's not something I'm familiar with at all. So it really kind of opened up an entire door of, you know, part of the industry you don't think about.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (44:22)
Yeah.

No, no, absolutely. We are very quiet and very reserved, but I think it's time for my sensory colleagues and I to be a bit louder because this is, it's time as well because we have all the tools and the knowledge to share with the food and beverage industry. Just use it. Yeah, there are very talented people out there.

Jessie Ott (44:42)
Yes, it's time.

Yeah, no, I think that this is a great tool for, especially with wines that may be struggling and need that insight or need to get to that next level. Or, you know, maybe they're just in a rut and they need to reconvene on, you know, what they're producing. I mean, there's a plethora of things, right? But I think this is a tool that people don't think about because they don't know it's available.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (45:06)
Yep.

I think that's what it is. mean, they are great school at UC Davis and other places in colleges as well. However, it's presented more as a research tool, where in fact it's a business tool. the big companies and medium sized companies I've worked with, they use it as a business tool to make decisions. And this is what it is about. It's not about just R &D. It's about getting

good data so you can have insights, you can interpret those data to help you decide to buy this big piece of equipment or to change your packaging because it resonates with your consumers.

Jessie Ott (46:01)
Yeah, no, I 100%. So if there's anything I can do to help you spread the word, let me know. Obviously we're doing podcasts, like, there's someone that I can introduce you to, you know, someone at a winery that would be beneficial. think that'd be, I think that'd be great.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (46:09)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, feel free to connect with me on the website. Have a chat. We can have a coffee chat on LinkedIn, whatever. I want everybody to succeed. it's a critical time. But there are a few things that you can do very quickly. I'm sure that there are lots of low-hanging fruits to start have a better grasp of your sensory communication.

Jessie Ott (46:20)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, okay. Absolutely. All right. Is there any, I have one more question. Isabel, what do you do outside of work? What are your passions?

Isabelle Lesschaeve (46:54)
Okay.

Well, my passions are wine and sensory. obviously I live it. I live them full time. But I love to travel. So I, now that I'm dedicated full time to my passions, I hope I will have a bit more time to travel. But just visiting wine country is just a treat. So I really want to do that more.

Jessie Ott (47:02)
Hahaha!

Isabelle Lesschaeve (47:21)
And of course I love food.

Jessie Ott (47:23)
Yeah,

we're a like in that. I love food and beverage.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (47:27)
Yeah.

I think that's one of the probably traits of people in our profession. You need to have a passion for food and wine or food and beverage to be really a good advocate for them.

Jessie Ott (47:31)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I know for sure. Well, again, Isabel, thank you so much for stopping by and telling us your story and sharing us your services and how it can, I think what you offer is something really unique and very attainable, right? It seems like it's fairly turnkey. It's not, you know, I was like, is this a six month or a year process? And I didn't get that, that was, that was that long, you know, from what you're describing.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (48:00)
Mm-hmm.

I mean, it can be long, but I think

we have to work with people resources. after that, it might be just like guidelines and you implement by yourself. Or if you need me, call me and we can fix something. So I'm really flexible and open. I know this industry very well, from the small guys to the big ones.

Jessie Ott (48:16)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, you've worked

for a couple of big ones, so you do know for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I will let you get back to your day, but I am going to wave goodbye and we'll be in touch soon. Okay. Bye.

Isabelle Lesschaeve (48:37)
Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Thank you, Jessie. Bye now.