The World's #1 Most Innovative Wine & the Team Behind It!

Welcome to Thirsty Thursdays @3PM EST! 👏 

Original Podcast Released July 28, 2023

My name is Jessie Ott, the Host of this Podcast which is all about Beverage Innovation. I talk with Innovation Pioneers from Agriculture to Glass.🥂

📢I talk🎙️with Lorenzo Zonin, Owner and Winemaker of Podere San Cristoforo Winery located in Tuscany, and Jaume Bages, a farmer located in the Priorat in the Catalonia area of Spain. Lorenzo uses biodynamic farming for his winery of 17 hectares or 42 acres mostly planted with Petit Verdot. And yes, he is a cousin of the famous Zonin family. 👏🍷 🎇 🎉 ✨ 👏 🥂  😁

A wine tasting brought these two together and they started talking about their interest in aging wine differently, in water! With loads of research and testing, they have discovered the best results are when they place their hand-made 750ml terracotta amphoras 30 meters or nearly 100 feet in an open water marine park located in the Mediterranean Sea where Roman amphoras have been found.

Given Lorenzo’s knowledge and love for Petit Verdot, this is the only varietal they will use commercially for now. The wine embodies some Mediterranean Sea influence as the vineyards are by the sea. They age the wine in French Oak barrels for 10 months before each is hand filled and sealed which makes this product even more rare.

Using manual harvested grapes that are selected specifically for this project and fermented in steal tanks. It then ages in French oak barrels for 10 months. They then carefully and manually fill each amphora by hand before making the trip out to their resting place at sea.

They place 600 amphoras per year for 9 months at 10 degrees Celsius or 50 degrees Fahrenheit. Their first vintage was in 2019 and they just put 2021 under the water this June. They would make more if they could, but their manufacturer cannot make more amphoras.

Each bottle sells for 240 Euros and comes in a wooden box with a ceramic stand to display it in your home or office. It also comes with a Certificate of Authenticity.

If you know anyone who wants to learn about this for their own winery or if anyone from a university is interested in getting data and really dig into what they are doing they are happy to work with you.

Lorenzo and Jaume are very innovative, curious, and they love to learn. I feel lucky to have spent time with them and I look forward to their progress and any new innovative adventures that await them.

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Chapters

• 2:20 Welcome
• 12:56 Where Lorenzo is Calling From
• 15:20 Jaume's Calling in From
• 29:59 Beginning of Podere San Cristoforo Winery
• 38:22 How Lorenzo & Jaume Met
• 47:52 What is an Amphora?
• 51:17 Why Use Petit Verdot
• 55:41 Amphora Aging So Much Yet to Learn
• 56:14 Wine Quality Lasts Longer Aged in Amphora
• 57:51 Even after open 10 Days Wine at Top Quality
• 58:06 Engage with Universities to Study Lack of Oxidation After 10 Days
• 1:00:49 Aging Wine in Space!
• 1:01:26 Depth Wine is Placed in Mediterranean Sea
• 1:03:58 Aging Location where Ancient Greet and Roman Amphoras Have Been Found
• 1:04:42 How many Bottles Aged per Year
• 1:07:15 Cost Per Bottle
• 1:08:25 Process of Lowering Bottles in Cage to Bottom of the Sea
• 1:15:04 How the Wine is Prepared Pre Amphora
• 1:18:20 Mentors & Resources
• 1:20:30 Lorenzo's Experience Meeting Legendary Icon Steven Spurrier
• 1:24:33 How they Told the World About Amphora-Maris
• 1:27:52 How We Met
• 1:30:32 Patented Process
• 1:35:39 Produced by Fedora J Productions

Transcript

00:00:05:06 - 00:00:30:16
Jessie
Welcome to Thursday, Thursdays at 3 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. My name is Jessica. The host of this podcast, which is all about beverage innovation. I talk with innovation pioneers from agriculture to glass. This week I'm speaking with Lorenzo Zone, an owner and winemaker of Powder San Cristoforo Winery, located in Tuscany, and Jamie Bosch is a farmer located in the Peoria and the Catalonia area of Spain.

00:00:30:18 - 00:01:04:19
Jessie
Lorenzo uses biodynamic farming for his winery of 17 hectares or 42 acres, mostly planted with Petite Bordeaux. And yes, he's a cousin of the famous zone and family. A wine tasting brought these two together where they started talking about their interest in aging wine differently in water. With loads of research and testing, they have discovered the best results are when they place their handmade 750 milliliter terracotta amphoras, 30m, or nearly 100ft, in an open water marine park located in the Mediterranean Sea, where actual Roman amphoras have been found.

00:01:05:00 - 00:01:30:10
Jessie
Given Lorenzo's knowledge and love for Petite Bordeaux, this is the only varietal they will use commercially. For now, the wine embodies a mediterranean sea, influenced as the vineyards are by the sea the age. The wine in French oak barrels for ten months before each is hand sealed and hand sealed, which makes this product even more rare. They placed 604 as per year for nine months at 10°C or 50°F.

00:01:30:12 - 00:01:51:12
Jessie
Their first vintage was in 2019 and they just put 2021 under the water. This June. They would make more if they could, but the manufacturer just can't make more. And for us, each bottle sells for €240 and comes in a wooden box with the ceramic stand to display it in your home or office. It also comes with a pretty cool certificate of authenticity.

00:01:51:14 - 00:02:16:08
Jessie
If you know anyone that wants to learn more about this for their own winery, or if anyone from a university is interested and getting data and really dig into what they're doing, they're happy to work with you and share all their information. Lorenzo and Jamie are very innovative, curious, and they love to learn. I feel lucky to have spent time with them, and I look forward to their progress and any new innovative adventures that await them.

00:02:16:10 - 00:02:43:22
Jessie
Thank you for listening and be sure to subscribe to be notified of all new episodes. Welcome everybody! My name is Jessica and I have Lorenzo and Jaime here all the way from Italy, representing Podence San Cristoforo Winery in Tuscany in the Maremma. Correct? Correct. All right. Well, welcome. Thank you. Are you guys doing today?

00:02:44:00 - 00:02:46:18
Lorenzo
Fine, thanks. Thank you for hosting us.

00:02:46:20 - 00:02:56:23
Jessie
Yeah. It's, it's, hump day today. So you're about, I guess, about the end of your day. I don't know if there or unless you have wine dinners tonight.

00:02:57:01 - 00:02:59:17
Lorenzo
It's never the end of the day.

00:02:59:19 - 00:03:04:02
Jessie
That's right. When you order vineyard, it's never the end. Yeah. Here. Yeah.

00:03:04:02 - 00:03:06:04
Lorenzo
It's exactly.

00:03:06:06 - 00:03:26:04
Jessie
But I gotta tell you, you know, I would. That must be just one of the most amazing feelings to be able to wake up every day, get your hands in the dirt, walk the fields. You know, work with, you know, your winemakers and then and get, you know, highly awarded like you have on your portfolios. That must be just an amazing feeling.

00:03:26:06 - 00:03:57:07
Lorenzo
It is, it is it's, hard work, but, very rewarding in terms of, feelings, sensations when you are, outside, and, you see nature that these, so generous, is, is really fulfilling. And you think that you don't need anything more than the just what you have, right?

00:03:57:09 - 00:04:19:15
Jessie
Right. Yeah. I see that you are into the biodynamics of agriculture and winemaking, so. Well, I'm looking forward to kind of talking through that with you and getting some of, you know, like insight into what you think is kind of the the important aspects of that in, in your wines, in your winemaking techniques. What do you think is really cool?

00:04:19:15 - 00:04:36:23
Jessie
I think it's probably, it's coming. I think it's more and more popular, but I think but if I had to guess, I would say Italy's probably like one of the top countries doing it. You would know more than I do. I don't know.

00:04:37:01 - 00:04:39:12
Lorenzo
You mean, biodynamic?

00:04:39:14 - 00:04:40:15
Jessie
Yeah.

00:04:40:17 - 00:05:36:01
Lorenzo
Yeah. Italy is, one of the country where, organic agriculture is more developed. I think, it's because we have a very nice climate and, growing, things organically is, is not so difficult. And, Italians are so much attached to quality products, in terms of, vegetables and fruit and that, in a way, the market also the Italian market is asking more and more for, better food in terms of taste and, and healthier food.

00:05:36:01 - 00:06:22:22
Lorenzo
So, when we are speaking about, biotin, the most important thing is that, the, the quality of the soil is fundamental. So the fact that, our soil is alive and it has not been polluted by chemicals and, all biodynamic practices are aiming to, revitalize the soil. So increase the vitality of the soil and, increasing the vitality of the soil is, a way to have healthier, plants.

00:06:23:00 - 00:06:34:10
Lorenzo
And having healthier plants means, as well, having better fruit. This is, in a way, the logic behind, biodynamic.

00:06:34:12 - 00:06:56:22
Jessie
Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's definitely, there's some wineries here that are into it and, you know, doing it very well and making organic wines and whatnot as well. So, but yeah, I, I agree, that's really cool. Is it harder than, the other I mean, is it, is it a harder way to, to farm?

00:06:57:00 - 00:07:40:09
Lorenzo
Yeah. It's, it's, of course harder. Because, you don't have, the chemicals that are, helping you reducing, for example, the risks of, botrytis, the risk of, diseases. They are extremely powerful, substances that get into, the sap, gets into the vine and protect the vines from inside are the kind of antibiotics against diseases.

00:07:40:11 - 00:08:23:09
Lorenzo
And, fertilizer, for example, increases the, the crops. So in, in terms of, wars that you spend per, per acre. Operator. You need, many more hours, in, acre, than, if you are conventional and the crop is very reduced, is must be lethal because the more grapes, for example, you have, the easier are there.

00:08:23:11 - 00:09:08:06
Lorenzo
The the the easier is the risk to, to get infection from the grape because the, the the grapes, are so attached one to the other and there are so many leaves that, there's no air circulation and, and you can have, botrytis a rotten, grapes. So if you are organic or biodynamic, you need to reduce the crop so that there is more space between the grapes, more air going through the, the berries and, and, clusters.

00:09:08:08 - 00:09:36:10
Lorenzo
And, this way you reduce, enormously the risk of, rotten, grapes and, other diseases like, for example, or Edam and, Apple. No, that I think, use I don't know the, the English name for these two big diseases that are affecting the grapes.

00:09:36:12 - 00:09:51:20
Jessie
Okay. I didn't you know, what I didn't realize or I didn't remember, and that's this isn't a surprise, is that you have to have more air in between them. That's interesting. So does that mean you get a lower? You plant fewer vines.

00:09:51:22 - 00:09:55:19
Lorenzo
In between, you have a fewer. You have fewer clusters.

00:09:56:00 - 00:09:57:01
Jessie
Clusters. Okay.

00:09:57:03 - 00:10:38:21
Lorenzo
Yes. You produce less grapes per acre, less grapes being yield. The yield is must be lower because if you, have, a bigger crop, the risk of having bad grapes is very high. So you need to, you need to also to observe is if the illness, is, spreading out your vineyard and, and that's why you need to spend more time in the vineyard to observe that, the grapes are ripening in the right way.

00:10:38:23 - 00:11:14:10
Lorenzo
And so you you need to care about the your vineyard more than in conventional, you know, that. Yeah. Chemicals, actually, helps you to reduce the time you spend in the vineyard. So you need to reduce, the costs in terms of, hours of work per acre. And also it, decrease the costs because you can have, in a year crop.

00:11:14:12 - 00:11:28:07
Lorenzo
So at the end, the, a kilogram, of grape costs much less if you are conventional than biodynamic.

00:11:28:09 - 00:11:30:05
Jessie
Gotcha, gotcha.

00:11:30:07 - 00:11:44:08
Lorenzo
It's about, 40%. We calculated it is about 40% more expensive. The grape coming out from, organic, vineyard.

00:11:44:10 - 00:11:46:23
Jessie
Wow. Okay, that's a lot.

00:11:47:01 - 00:12:05:06
Lorenzo
Yeah, that's a lot. But, at the at the end, we need to go back and understand that, when you do agriculture, you have to, in a way, nothing too much about profit.

00:12:05:08 - 00:12:06:15
Jessie
Yep.

00:12:06:17 - 00:12:46:15
Lorenzo
The the culture of profit has destroyed, the, good agriculture because, to get more money out of your land, you are going on top of many, of many things. And, basically, we are not eating the same good food as in the past just because, we are running so much into saving money to.

00:12:46:17 - 00:12:53:04
Lorenzo
To have, food that costs less. You know, it's this is there is a limit out of it.

00:12:53:06 - 00:12:59:09
Jessie
Yeah. I agree. So, Lorenzo, you're calling from the winery today?

00:12:59:11 - 00:13:01:03
Lorenzo
Yes, I am.

00:13:01:05 - 00:13:08:03
Jessie
And so do you want to tell us a little bit about where that is? So the listeners have a kind of a, an idea in their, in their head.

00:13:08:05 - 00:13:47:09
Lorenzo
So we're in Italy. Cristoforo. Yes. Is San Cristoforo is, a little winery? 17 actors on vine, on the coast of, Tuscany. This area is called the Maremma and Maremma, is an area, which is, quite, flat, or anyway, rolling hills. Really, attached to the, to the coast. So it's, it gets very much the influence of the of the sea.

00:13:47:11 - 00:14:02:06
Lorenzo
We have constant breezes from the sea, which are good to keep our crops healthy. It's a very dry area and, very sunny. We have.

00:14:02:08 - 00:14:17:20
Lorenzo
Thursday at how many days? How here. And, my name in other areas. Italy.

00:14:17:22 - 00:14:19:12
Lorenzo
Very has a.

00:14:19:12 - 00:14:25:02
Lorenzo
Very high index of.

00:14:25:04 - 00:14:31:14
Lorenzo
Yeah, yeah. Very lovely area.

00:14:31:16 - 00:14:37:03
Lorenzo
And we have, you see, which is quite low impact.

00:14:37:08 - 00:15:12:16
Lorenzo
Mostly like, a lake. And that reflects the light on the back, on the air. And so we have, colors that are very bright and a lot of, luminosity that, our have been, any plans to, to grow faster? And, in the case of grape, ripening better the, the grapes. So we, we generally do not have, green nodes on our wines.

00:15:12:16 - 00:15:19:10
Lorenzo
Our wines are always quite ripe and rich, full of flavors because of this luminosity.

00:15:19:12 - 00:15:23:05
Jessie
Gotcha. Tell me, where are you calling from today?

00:15:23:07 - 00:15:30:21
Jaume
From Catherine, from a little, part of Catalonia called the Rona.

00:15:30:23 - 00:15:35:13
Jessie
So do you live there? Do you live there or. Okay.

00:15:35:15 - 00:15:46:06
Jaume
I, I live in Tarragona. Well, a little village of Tarragona called, Alpha Roger is the name of the the little village.

00:15:46:08 - 00:15:51:16
Jessie
Nice. And so, Jeremy, how do you know Lorenzo?

00:15:51:18 - 00:15:54:18
Jaume
In, you know, testing.

00:15:54:20 - 00:15:56:07
Jessie
In the tasting.

00:15:56:08 - 00:15:57:18
Lorenzo
We met in a tasting.

00:15:57:23 - 00:15:59:14
Jaume
Yeah, we met in a tasting.

00:15:59:19 - 00:16:01:15
Jessie
That's cool. We're at.

00:16:01:17 - 00:16:21:19
Jaume
It's wide. For, 5 or 6 years ago, and we think about, the wine a about the that product of, for families. So we start, this relationship, here we are making.

00:16:21:21 - 00:16:44:01
Jessie
Okay, this here part of the team that kind of works on the, the wines in in the sea that we're going to get into. I can't see. I'm so excited about this process, so we'll, we'll keep it on here. So, where are you guys both from? Gentlemen, we were born in the same. In the same area where you live now?

00:16:44:03 - 00:16:47:01
Jaume
Yes, in the same same place.

00:16:47:03 - 00:16:50:03
Jessie
What about you, Lorenzo? Where are you originally from? In Italy.

00:16:50:05 - 00:17:26:13
Lorenzo
I'm originally from Vietnam. And, in 2008, here in. I'm from Benidorm. Is, I come from a village where the people can help choose what to do, actually, because everybody in our village are making wine. It's, it's, a village, made out of corn kernels with, rocky soil and, very steep.

00:17:26:15 - 00:17:28:02
Lorenzo
I don't know,

00:17:28:04 - 00:17:29:05
Jessie
Hills. Mountains.

00:17:29:05 - 00:18:03:05
Lorenzo
Yes, yes. And, and so, nothing is growing except, grapes and, some olive trees. So I have been involved with wine since ever my, all my friends had the winery or had vineyards when I was little. And, it's a, it's a, it's a cool place, but quite boring, you know, when you grow up and, there's no much choices.

00:18:03:07 - 00:18:37:00
Lorenzo
But on the others, on the other side, when I started to discover how beautiful was wine, when I started to work abroad, I found that my weakness, the fact that I couldn't choose, many things in, in life actually became, a strength because, I realized that, I knew so much about wine.

00:18:37:02 - 00:18:41:02
Lorenzo
Because of my culture. Because of my traditions.

00:18:41:04 - 00:19:09:07
Jessie
Yeah. And you, I guess being just living in Italy, you're around wine and and olive oil and, you know, and the best food ever. I'll give you that. But also your last name is zoning. So you are related to the zoning family of wine. So, I mean, you have it kind of, not only just being a citizen and, and growing up in Italy and then being in that, that region, you also have family that's been in the winemaking business.

00:19:09:09 - 00:19:47:05
Lorenzo
Yes, absolutely. As, as I said before, in, in this village, you can only do wine or grow grapes. So my family, did that. We are winemakers since, seven generations and, and, and that's, that's why sometimes I felt, that the, my culture and my tradition was a little bit, too strong on the possibility that I had in my life.

00:19:47:07 - 00:20:27:01
Lorenzo
But, finally, I, I see the, the good part of it and, I'm very grateful to, to my family and, and to my parents that gave me the possibility to, to be in this, in this business, which, I didn't want to choose, at the very beginning, but, but, at the end, I just realized that, he could give me the possibility to express myself in the best way.

00:20:27:02 - 00:20:45:22
Jessie
Yep. Definitely. Yeah. Through your different wines and techniques and different varietals that you can grow and and and whatnot. Yeah. And then there's the whole branding and labels, which is really fun, too. And expressive. So, when did you start becoming a winemaker?

00:20:46:00 - 00:21:16:00
Lorenzo
I start becoming winemaker, when I was, in, I mean, a serious winemaker when I was 26, after a master in viticulture in enology in France that took me in different part of the world, to, to learn more, about wine. I spent a few days also in, in UC Davis.

00:21:16:02 - 00:21:18:01
Jessie
Okay.

00:21:18:03 - 00:21:53:17
Lorenzo
And, and other, very good university in Europe, South America, and, and the barbers with Venus probably was, where I started to make wine professionally because I was assistant winemaker and, it was the first time, really that I was, managing at Palm, or, really a big thank because when I was at home as a kid, my father was making wine, at home.

00:21:53:17 - 00:22:00:13
Lorenzo
So the, the equipments were very, very, high.

00:22:00:13 - 00:22:03:15
Jessie
How low? Low production.

00:22:03:17 - 00:22:19:12
Lorenzo
Yes. No production. And, for amateurs, you know, there were not professional, equipments. The press was, hand press, gotcha.

00:22:19:17 - 00:22:24:09
Jessie
You know. And where is that winery that you worked at?

00:22:24:10 - 00:22:32:09
Lorenzo
You mean barbers with vineyards. Yep. Yeah. Barbers with vineyards. Is, a winery in Virginia.

00:22:32:10 - 00:22:36:02
Jessie
Okay. And where is it close to do you know.

00:22:36:04 - 00:22:36:07
Lorenzo
Yeah.

00:22:36:12 - 00:22:37:16
Jessie
Charlotte's Ocala.

00:22:37:18 - 00:22:42:10
Lorenzo
Yeah. Charlottesville. Where the UVA is the University of Virginia.

00:22:42:12 - 00:22:43:23
Jessie
Okay. Gotcha.

00:22:44:02 - 00:22:48:06
Lorenzo
Yeah. She's 20 minutes from from, Charlottesville.

00:22:48:08 - 00:22:52:05
Jessie
And how long were you there? Okay.

00:22:52:07 - 00:22:54:02
Lorenzo
I spent two years.

00:22:54:04 - 00:23:01:14
Jessie
Okay. So that's pretty decent time. A couple of vintages. Yeah. Vintages. Yeah. That's cool.

00:23:01:16 - 00:23:23:17
Lorenzo
Yes. No, it was for me was a revelation. I really like American culture and, enthusiasm for that. You put in, in so many fields and sector, I really, really enjoy my time. In, in Virginia.

00:23:23:19 - 00:23:33:23
Jessie
Yeah. It's a beautiful part of the country. It really is very natural. Yeah. And there's quite a few wineries there now. I don't know how many.

00:23:34:01 - 00:23:36:14
Lorenzo
But I think more than two hundreds now.

00:23:36:16 - 00:24:02:05
Jessie
Oh, wow. Yeah, we went out. And, stayed, my family and I and our, my friends and their little little boys at the time, and we toured a couple of wineries and they were delicious. They were awesome. Really, really good wines being made out there. So then what happened? Where did you go after that?

00:24:02:07 - 00:24:45:12
Lorenzo
After that? I, I came back, I started to work for my family. Meanwhile, I had also an experience, in, in New Zealand, working for, Michael Sarasin biodynamic winery in, in, Marlborough. And, at the same time, my father, bought this land because his dream was to have, a relative, big, property compared to the property we used to have, in, in Veneto.

00:24:45:12 - 00:25:25:12
Lorenzo
In Veneto, we, we had the two, actors. So it's about, six, or four acres. Four acres, I think more than four acres. And, he those, those vineyards were all, in, with very important, degree of steepness. And so he, his dream was to have a quite flat area where he could, you know, cultivate the vines, without, many problems.

00:25:25:14 - 00:25:59:04
Lorenzo
And, so he bought this land and, just with the intention of selling grapes. And, when I found this land, I started to I asking my father if I could, begin my own project, out of his grapes. And, and I started with a couple of bricks and, helped by a friend who is a winemaker in Bordeaux, France.

00:25:59:06 - 00:26:38:00
Lorenzo
And we started to make, our own wine. And, the wine at the at that moment was really horrible. Was good at all. But, the, the fact is that you always have to start some somewhere and somehow. Yeah. And, the enthusiasm was so big that, we started to first believe in, in the project, and then, we started to, to buy, relatively good equipment.

00:26:38:00 - 00:27:30:13
Lorenzo
So at the very beginning, we, we didn't have, a winery, so we were doing wine, under, a courtyard and, and little by little, we started to have, a proper winery and, out of it, we started to make more, better and better wines and, if, the, the first vintage was 2005, in 2000 and, 15, we got our first 3D kitty, which is the main, award, here in Italy, where just, yes, just 300 wineries which carry.

00:27:30:15 - 00:28:18:16
Lorenzo
And so these, these give us, also some, how do you call it? Confidence. Visibility? Yeah. Visibility. I don't know the ability of the people. Yeah. The people started to ask for our wines and, and we we started to grow, not too much in terms of, number of bottles, because the number of bottles always were relatively, relatively low, because, we started with, 7000 bottles and we are now selling 60 to 70,000 bottles.

00:28:18:18 - 00:28:42:02
Lorenzo
Wow. Which is, very good volume. Yeah, yeah, it looks it looks big, like a big volumes, but, it's it's very it's a micro winery. It's really, small compared to important brands.

00:28:42:04 - 00:28:54:19
Lorenzo
This is, I think is some, between 40 and 70s, is really the minimum amount of, wine you can make to have a professional winery.

00:28:54:21 - 00:28:55:16
Jessie
Okay.

00:28:55:18 - 00:28:59:12
Lorenzo
You know, to, to make a living out of it.

00:28:59:13 - 00:29:10:10
Jessie
Yeah. So you met that threshold. So do you still have the the land then in Veneto and still making wine?

00:29:10:12 - 00:29:49:21
Lorenzo
Yes. The two hectares of, of vineyard that, we have that my father have in Benito. We still have it. There's, a lot of difficulties to run that vineyard because, those vineyards are so steep, and, people, are difficult to to, to, to find, you know, the, the, the old people that used to run these kind of vineyards, little by little are becoming older, and they don't they cannot work that land anymore.

00:29:49:23 - 00:29:57:08
Lorenzo
So, with some difficulties, my father is still making grapes and selling grapes there.

00:29:57:10 - 00:30:08:03
Jessie
Gotcha. And so when did, the winery Poderes and Cristoforo come into the, into your life? When did that happen?

00:30:08:05 - 00:30:09:15
Lorenzo
In 2000.

00:30:09:17 - 00:30:11:03
Jessie
In 2000. Okay.

00:30:11:05 - 00:30:45:10
Lorenzo
Yes. 2000. So it's already 23 years that we are running this project. The first vintage was 2005 because the, the vineyards, have to grow, because we planted almost everything. We just found, couple of vectors of, vermentino from this very old vineyard and, and we decided to restore it and to make, out of it, an important white wine.

00:30:45:12 - 00:30:46:02
Lorenzo
So I.

00:30:46:02 - 00:30:48:03
Jessie
Love vermentino.

00:30:48:05 - 00:31:23:09
Lorenzo
Vermentino is a really interesting grape variety. Especially because, when you drink it, it reminds you a lot about being by the sea. The the flavors and the taste. You know, the salinity that you can find on in the wine. Reminds you about the coast. And it's, this is really unique. Very few other white wines, gives you that sensations.

00:31:23:11 - 00:31:37:13
Jessie
Yeah. It's it's it is amazing. We get we do get quite a bit over here. Is would you say that Vermentino is a pretty big grape in, in terms of white wines in, in Italy, it's becoming.

00:31:37:13 - 00:32:12:19
Lorenzo
Yes, it's fashionable now. More and more people are, asking for, for, vermentino. I would say that Pinot Grigio, especially in, in the US, is the major variety, and after Vermentino, after, Pinot Grigio, probably we have a vermentino on, on the still wines. White wines, of course, because for the sparkling Prosecco is, the number one.

00:32:12:21 - 00:32:14:11
Jessie
Yeah, that makes sense.

00:32:14:13 - 00:32:19:16
Lorenzo
Yes. Galera grapes.

00:32:19:18 - 00:32:25:00
Jessie
So. So, gentlemen, what brought you into the wine world?

00:32:25:02 - 00:33:14:16
Jaume
Because I live in, in a place in near near Pre-Read. I don't know if you know that that area, but Europe. So I live really there, so I, I live, really next to that. And I have friends that, that, that are winemakers. And when I was 20, 20, 25 years old, I start to interesting, in all, you know, the about the, the wine before before 20 years, I, I never, drank wine before.

00:33:14:18 - 00:33:55:00
Jaume
So I start to do interesting about wine in, in when I was 20, 20 or 25 years old. So little by little, I start, knowing more and more about wine and that was the, my my story. In in this, in this amazing world. I just, wine lover, that I find that I met, fantastic people, along the the, that process.

00:33:55:02 - 00:34:04:10
Jaume
And I'm just, a major, person in this in this big world.

00:34:04:14 - 00:34:11:08
Jessie
Yeah. It's fun. It's, you know, you get the bug at some point. I mean, there's no turning back, right?

00:34:11:10 - 00:34:12:13
Jaume
Yeah, yeah.

00:34:12:15 - 00:34:21:01
Jessie
Yeah. You have access to some of the best wines in the world. So, you know, it's a good bug to have, right?

00:34:21:03 - 00:34:24:07
Jaume
Yes, yes, yes.

00:34:24:09 - 00:34:54:10
Jessie
Yeah. I remember I lived in France for a year, and back then it was before the euro. And so we could get a good bottle of wine for like, six francs, like you. It was such a great experience to be able to taste really high quality wines at such an affordable price. And, you know, to be able to be around such great wines all the time, every day, you know, is a is an amazing experience.

00:34:54:10 - 00:35:10:11
Jessie
I mean, I'm sure it's not as is it, cheap as it is now as it was back then, but still, you know, you get access to quite a few really good wines, and we do here in the US there just, you know, obviously we pay a lot more for the, for, you know, non-American wines.

00:35:10:13 - 00:35:22:03
Lorenzo
Yeah. But, in for example, I saw that in, in California, wineries are selling wines quite expensive.

00:35:22:04 - 00:35:25:08
Jessie
Everybody's taken up price because of Covid.

00:35:25:09 - 00:35:34:22
Lorenzo
Yeah, yeah. But I think if you want a good bottle of wine, you have to spend some money.

00:35:35:00 - 00:35:36:20
Jessie
Yep.

00:35:36:22 - 00:35:44:00
Lorenzo
Otherwise you, you risk to, to drink something that is not so nice.

00:35:44:02 - 00:35:55:22
Jessie
Yeah, I know that my price point is going up about $5. I used to spend right around 13 to 15, maybe $16. And that's now a minimum of 15 to 16 to 2021.

00:35:55:22 - 00:35:57:01
Lorenzo
Yes.

00:35:57:03 - 00:36:08:21
Jessie
So I don't know if I'm older and and or or ish or the wines just really get that, you know, much more expensive it could be. But could be a combination of both.

00:36:08:23 - 00:36:37:14
Lorenzo
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Wines are today more expensive than before. The, the quality is raised to so much and, of course, we are not able to to go back from that level of quality and, and to reach that quality cost to have increased. Yes.

00:36:37:16 - 00:36:39:15
Jessie
Yeah, of course not.

00:36:39:15 - 00:37:11:22
Lorenzo
Not speaking about the, the economic crisis that we are going through, which makes, you know, everything more expensive. But I think, generally speaking, the, the cost for making a bottle of wine is higher today because we are following some, process that, are process that costs money.

00:37:12:00 - 00:37:18:17
Jessie
Yeah. Unfortunately, it's probably going to just keep going up, you know.

00:37:18:19 - 00:37:56:02
Lorenzo
Yes. Because so we when we get, accustomed of, a certain process that is expensive, we can all go back because that process specific process is making a better wine and of course, costs a little bit more. And and you have to do it. I am speaking, for example, about, inherent gases that you use when you when you move the wine from a tank to another, you need to protect the wine from the moving from, from this moving.

00:37:56:02 - 00:38:11:18
Lorenzo
So you need to put some gas in, in the other tank so that the wine is not getting oxidized. And of course, this is expensive.

00:38:11:20 - 00:38:20:10
Jessie
Yeah. So, Jamie, let's start with you. And and how did you start with Lorenzo?

00:38:20:12 - 00:39:05:08
Jaume
Is what I told you before I met. I met Lorenzo when? When? While, a wine tasting. Because I, I start to, that kind of project with, with a friend, in importing wine into into the, the amphoras under the, under the sea. It was when when Lorenzo, many years ago, he wanted to start to to do the same, but in Italy that there were, many problems to do, that kind of age of wine aging.

00:39:05:10 - 00:39:33:17
Jaume
So when Lorenzo, no more about, about us, about that, that project, he contacted us, and he he wanted to to be part of that project, and that's where where, that was the, the the beginning of the, of this project.

00:39:33:19 - 00:39:35:15
Jessie
When did those conversations start?

00:39:35:15 - 00:39:52:15
Jaume
Then, the, what it was, and I think, do you remember Lorenzo? When was it, 2000, 18 oh 2017, I think.

00:39:52:16 - 00:40:41:07
Lorenzo
Okay. Yeah, it more or less was, was that timing, dormant? Has a very nice friend in prior art that, experimented, the, aging of wine under water, but not under the sea. Okay. But, inside, an interesting, boss, I would say, you know, in, in ancient times, we were making wine, inside the kind of pool, made out of rocks.

00:40:41:09 - 00:41:25:20
Lorenzo
And you can still find in the south of Italy, in the middle of a field or on the mountains. You can find these, pools, that have been, done by Romans and by the people that were living there more than 2000 years ago. And the fermentation was done, in these pools and, in this, little village, in the prior art, they had the, these pools and, gentleman's friend, of course, couldn't do the wine in the same way because that was in very old methods.

00:41:25:22 - 00:41:56:06
Lorenzo
Today we have, more qualitative methods. And, so he had these, kind of pool, this kind of buff bathtub, where he put the water and, it put the, and actually the free run water coming from, from the depths. And, is like, how do you call it? Sort of, like a source of water from the.

00:41:56:06 - 00:41:57:20
Jessie
Yeah. Like a spring.

00:41:57:22 - 00:42:48:07
Lorenzo
Like a spring to spring. Yeah, a spring. So, he used to put the his bottles inside these, bathtub and, he had that these, spring water going through and refreshing the the bottles and at the same time avoiding oxidation because under water, there's no oxygen. And, and, he told, me that, and Downey was trying the wines and the wines were really were really, good, aged, compared to the wines that were aging on open air, these wines were fresher, were fresher, with less evolution.

00:42:48:08 - 00:43:19:09
Lorenzo
And these was, many years ago when he he found out this at the same time, I while I was here in, in San Cristoforo, I, I didn't have any place to put my bottles in. In a fresh way in a in a fresh place, because here is very hot. And we didn't have the, facilities to put our bottles.

00:43:19:11 - 00:44:00:06
Lorenzo
So it comes to my mind, the, the possibility of putting, my some of my bottles under the sea. Because under the sea, you have constant temperatures. And, also the, a very precise temperature, which was good for aging wine. Yeah. So I started to ask if it was possible to age my wines in the sea, but, they told me that, it was not possible that I could not use, the sea for my personal purposes.

00:44:00:08 - 00:44:53:06
Lorenzo
And so I drove down the project. I had already, the labels of the wine aged under the sea. So when I met, John at these, tasting, he told me about, this idea of putting the wine, under the sea, and, and I said that, that I was very much interested in trying, this, this process and, from that moment, we started to be more and more, in, in, like, in alert, you know, of everything that was going through, in the, in the world of wine, in terms of aging wine under the sea.

00:44:53:08 - 00:45:04:15
Lorenzo
And so we started to find articles about, that champagne that has been found, in the Northern Sea in Norway.

00:45:04:17 - 00:45:06:05
Jessie
Yeah.

00:45:06:07 - 00:45:40:23
Lorenzo
That everybody knows about this story. This is an amazing story that they try the wines and the wines were really good. Then, some other wineries were started to put the wine under the sea, and, and all these became for us, more and more intriguing until we started to experiment with, with different kind of and for us, because the first and for us were, were not appropriate.

00:45:41:01 - 00:46:24:00
Lorenzo
Didn't work because the water sea, the sea seawater was getting into the bottle and into the. And for us, so and, and also came to our attention the fact that, here in Italy, some, shipwrecks from the Romans were still holding some. And for us, inside the, the, the shipwreck and, we started to also to contact, the some, archeologist, you see, archeologists, some experts, here in Italy.

00:46:24:00 - 00:46:54:11
Lorenzo
And we started to, understand how Romans were using the for us fermentation process that they would they were doing into the amphora the way that they were transporting. Wine, at those ages, what kind of wine they were actually transporting? Because the wine that they were transporting was very much different from the wine that we know today.

00:46:54:13 - 00:46:55:08
Jessie
Right.

00:46:55:09 - 00:46:58:04
Lorenzo
So can you, Yeah.

00:46:58:06 - 00:47:02:10
Jessie
Do you like, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

00:47:02:12 - 00:47:30:07
Lorenzo
Sorry. It was like more like, you know, a mosaic with a lot of times that were getting old together until we found out what was, our where a lot of tests, a lot of, things that we are going through. And we were getting more and more knowledgeable about the materials that we could use for our amphora.

00:47:30:09 - 00:47:52:05
Lorenzo
More about, how the wine had to be done to be able to age well into a name for our, more about the history. So a lot of information. Just get into this pot of amphora and, Mary's.

00:47:52:07 - 00:48:00:12
Jessie
Can you explain to the audience what amphora is and what it's made out of and like a little bit of the history of it?

00:48:00:14 - 00:48:06:10
Lorenzo
Yeah. The what? The the you mean the end for itself. Like the container.

00:48:06:13 - 00:48:08:11
Jessie
The boat, the container, the vessel. Yeah.

00:48:08:13 - 00:48:44:18
Lorenzo
The vessel. Yes. The, it's, terracotta, but is a special terracotta that has a very small, porosity. And, the the amphora is cooked at very high temperature so that the crystallize and you don't have, oxygen, air or water or liquids going through, the material. And these are in artisanal amphora, so is made by hand one by one.

00:48:44:20 - 00:48:48:16
Jessie
Wow. And and how big are they?

00:48:48:18 - 00:48:59:16
Lorenzo
750 small. So it's the exact size of a bottle, but it looks very similar. If you give me one second, I can take one. So you can see.

00:48:59:16 - 00:49:00:01
Jessie
Oh, yeah.

00:49:00:01 - 00:49:08:02
Lorenzo
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So and can, can maybe answer some other questions about our project.

00:49:08:04 - 00:49:13:01
Jessie
I know that this project is petite Bordeaux, but do you, have you used other varietals?

00:49:13:04 - 00:49:45:08
Jaume
No. Just, just, Petit Verdot, we start, we start putting another variety called, Korean, you know, Canadian, we start, we start the project with this variety. But, when, when we started the the project with Lorenzo, we decide to put, Petit Verdot, into the into the amphora.

00:49:45:10 - 00:49:51:23
Jaume
So at the moment, we, we just just this very idea.

00:49:52:01 - 00:50:19:11
Lorenzo
Yeah. This, this is what we sell at the moment. Of course, we did, many tests we did with the Sangiovese. We did also with the rosé and, from our test, I have to say that, the, this amphora that I showed you now is very suitable, is very suitable for holding any kind of wine.

00:50:19:12 - 00:50:21:14
Lorenzo
And this is the amphora.

00:50:21:16 - 00:50:24:22
Jessie
Oh, wow. That is really cool.

00:50:25:00 - 00:50:27:07
Lorenzo
And it's quite small, if you can see it.

00:50:27:13 - 00:50:29:17
Jessie
Yeah. It fits in your hand.

00:50:29:18 - 00:50:34:09
Lorenzo
Yes. And and you see how big is a 750.

00:50:34:11 - 00:50:41:18
Jessie
Yep. That's really cool. So how is it sealed at the top.

00:50:41:20 - 00:50:44:16
Lorenzo
It's sealed with, works.

00:50:44:18 - 00:50:45:07
Jessie
Okay.

00:50:45:09 - 00:50:49:06
Lorenzo
Well it works. And a cork. Natural cork.

00:50:49:08 - 00:50:53:02
Jessie
Okay. And that holds under pressure in the sea. That's cool.

00:50:53:04 - 00:51:13:18
Lorenzo
Yeah. We we also increase, the protection by adding some rubber to. Yeah, two layers of, rubber and, a seal, a special seal around to keep the rubber tied into the neck.

00:51:13:20 - 00:51:23:02
Jessie
Gotcha. Okay. So why the video?

00:51:23:04 - 00:52:18:18
Lorenzo
Simply because, a pizza dough is for us. Our best wine that we produce, we put. We put so much effort on the production of this wine, and, vetiver dough is such, a nonsense grape. It's this is really interesting. And, but I don't want to annoy you, and and, the the people who are listening us, but, any grape that we find in the market, is the result of a domestication exactly like, the same thing that go through, the dog, for example, when when you when you choose a dog, you have many kind of dogs and, humans have been selecting dogs for

00:52:18:23 - 00:52:21:00
Lorenzo
for centuries, right?

00:52:21:00 - 00:52:23:17
Jessie
It's true. Well, I have a golden retriever.

00:52:23:19 - 00:52:57:05
Lorenzo
Exactly. You have a golden retriever? German has, a French, bulldog. Right? Yes. I have a springer spaniel. So you have many different kind of dogs, and you have the same for grapes. So, humans have been selecting Sangiovese because is is growing really well in Tuscany because it's fresh, drinkable. It ages really well. It has a resistance against oxidation.

00:52:57:07 - 00:53:30:12
Lorenzo
So any grape variety has been chosen for some characteristics. And for example, you can find 70 more than 70 kind of Sangiovese. So Sangiovese has been a select cited so many times. Yeah. So it's it's quite young I would say. It's not in a really ancient, variety. While pretty rare though, if you want to plant vetiver, though, and you go to buy it, you just find one vetiver though.

00:53:30:12 - 00:54:05:19
Lorenzo
So for me, vetiver, though, is a kind of, wolf in, in, in the evolution. You know, you we know that, dogs are coming from wolves, right? Is just an evolution selection. And, but the original, dog, used to be a wolf, probably. And, we, in this case, Petit Verdot is still, a very ancient grape variety.

00:54:05:20 - 00:54:39:06
Lorenzo
And and it's really intriguing how concentrate is the, the the mast and the wine that comes out of it. It has very small berries. So simply, we we thought that, it was nice to have, such a rare grape variety e done in purity because it's 100% vetiver, though, in such a unique vessel, which is the amphora.

00:54:39:08 - 00:55:04:09
Lorenzo
So just to add more and more value to the product that we were delivering to the to our wine lovers and, we had to choose one and we say, let's choose, Petit Verdot for, for these reasons, just to make it more special. Yeah. Just to make it more special. The the than for our Maris.

00:55:04:11 - 00:55:24:01
Jessie
Yeah. And now and you know that grape very well. So, I'm sure it's easy to, with your knowledge of of it. It's it's a it's a little bit easier to learn faster, right? Yeah. You understand the structure, the tannins. You know, that, aspect of the grape.

00:55:24:03 - 00:55:57:20
Lorenzo
Yes. And and saying that, we could have gone with other varieties. This is, this is for sure this is possible. But we had to make, a choice. Choice? And, yeah, we had to make a choice, but, this, this container, this amphora is, it's it's it's really a very good container. Which potentials are still, unknown?

00:55:57:22 - 00:56:28:20
Lorenzo
I think we we we will need more years to understand, what are the possibility that these kind of, bottle, this kind of amphora is giving us? Because we also discovered that, once open it, the wine in the amphora last more than, the wine, that is, open it in the glass bottle.

00:56:28:22 - 00:57:01:11
Lorenzo
So in the glass bottle, when we serve the wine, the difference from the glass and the and the amphora. And in our case, is that when you when we serve both the wines, the wine that is coming from the amphora is a little bit closed, so the aromatics are not so bright at the very beginning, while the wine coming out from the bottle is already very open it and very fruity.

00:57:01:16 - 00:57:39:07
Lorenzo
Spicy. It's, it's fantastic when it comes out from the bottle, but immediately we can see that after few minutes, the wine in, coming from the amphora is gaining some, some terrain. Is is getting better, better, better. Why? The wine is coming from the glass bottle is losing something. So you can see, two kind of wines, one that is delivering everything immediately, but then is going down quite quickly.

00:57:39:09 - 00:58:10:19
Lorenzo
And on the other side, the wine in the amphora is very shy at the beginning, but with time is delivering a lot. And after ten days that the wine that the amphora is open, you can still enjoy the wine at the top. So it's not oxidized at all. And this is something that we need to understand more. We want to involve some university.

00:58:10:21 - 00:58:42:02
Lorenzo
Yeah. To study, to study this because it's it's quite unique has never happened to has is is like it's a better container than, than the glass in terms of conservation. You know, I don't want to say that this is a better container that than glass, because I think that glass is, is a fantastic, matter. It's a fantastic, material for, for holding wine.

00:58:42:02 - 00:59:03:02
Lorenzo
Probably the best material we know at the moment. But the terracotta, in this case, our, from our eyes, as some something special in terms of aging the wine and in terms of, keeping the wine safe against oxidation.

00:59:03:04 - 00:59:27:21
Jessie
Do you think that it's because it's at a cool, constant temperature, whereas the bottles tend to have probably changes in humidity, changes in temperature, changes in whatever. That maybe affect it differently, whereas you have this constant cool water.

00:59:27:23 - 01:00:11:21
Lorenzo
Yeah, it can be very much possible because the way the wine ages under the sea is completely different from, the wine that is aging. On, on the earth. And the fact that the temperatures, pressures, electromagnetic fields and all the things that are happening at that death, under the Mediterranean Sea, it makes that, the wine that is, a beverage that is in a continuous evolution.

01:00:11:23 - 01:00:30:09
Lorenzo
Creates some chemical reactions that are completely different from the chemical reaction that you would have inside a glass bottle on the top of, the surface, you know, on the surface, on the cellar. Yeah. So, so the weather.

01:00:30:09 - 01:00:31:02
Jessie
Patterns.

01:00:31:02 - 01:00:32:02
Lorenzo
Are different. Yeah.

01:00:32:05 - 01:00:48:16
Jessie
Pressure, atmospheric pressures, all that has probably a lot to do with it. That would be really interesting to for a university to pick that up and really run with that, because that would be super, super interesting to know. Yeah. All those things.

01:00:48:18 - 01:01:15:11
Lorenzo
Yeah. You know that now it's fashionable to send, wine, on the space to see how wine can age on the space and, and this is the same, I think that, under the sea, you have a completely different world. And, and the wine ages in a different way. Like, you would, age, on on the space.

01:01:15:16 - 01:01:17:00
Lorenzo
In the space.

01:01:17:02 - 01:01:38:14
Jessie
Do you have a place? You said. So you go to the Mediterranean Sea to put these bottles. You go to the Mediterranean. Okay. And at what depth do you, have you experimented with different, levels, you know, below sea, below the surface.

01:01:38:16 - 01:02:10:07
Lorenzo
The first attempt with me was at 15m, okay, for nine months. And, we were happy with it. We thought that that was the, the right, combination of depth, and, and a, aging period. Then we started to increase the, the depth to 30m for nine months, but we left the wine a little bit more.

01:02:10:07 - 01:02:40:00
Lorenzo
John may say to, let's say, and, you know, had the idea to, increase the timing to one year. And actually, the wine got so much better after one year at 30m that, we are, we are super happy of this new combination of, one year, at 30m.

01:02:40:02 - 01:02:40:20
Jessie
Be so much.

01:02:40:20 - 01:02:42:09
Lorenzo
Better. Yeah.

01:02:42:11 - 01:02:47:00
Jessie
Your sweet spot. So do you go to the same place every time?

01:02:47:01 - 01:02:55:17
Lorenzo
Yes. This, we choose this place, these, this place that we want to keep, anonymous at the moment.

01:02:55:19 - 01:03:00:00
Jessie
Yeah. It's good to say people are going to come steal. It's.

01:03:00:02 - 01:03:11:13
Lorenzo
Yeah. Because, because, you know, it's quite impossible to protect these. And for us against stealing because, is, in open, water.

01:03:11:15 - 01:03:12:01
Jessie
Yeah.

01:03:12:06 - 01:03:39:23
Lorenzo
And so anyone can go there and steal our. And for us. Yeah. So we decided to, protect them at least, by not saying where we are putting the, the aim for us. But, we can, give, some information about the place. First of all, is, on open, sea water.

01:03:40:01 - 01:04:26:08
Lorenzo
So it's not in a bay. It's not, close to a river or it's really on open, on open waters where, where you can have waves, two, three meters high. And, it's a place where, real Greek and Roman and for us have been found so super cool. Yeah. That it's, it's a place that in a way, is, people cannot go there so easily because, it's like a marine park, archeological park.

01:04:26:10 - 01:04:26:19
Jessie
Okay.

01:04:27:00 - 01:04:44:00
Lorenzo
So it's it's also nice the fact that we can combine, the two things, I mean, to put our, and for us in a place where real, Greek and Roman and for us have been found.

01:04:44:02 - 01:04:51:11
Jessie
So how often and how many bottles do you, put in the sea?

01:04:51:13 - 01:05:09:15
Lorenzo
We put, 600. And for us every year, because these are artisanal. For us that, the artisan that is making them for us cannot provide us with more than 600 and for us per year.

01:05:09:17 - 01:05:12:15
Jessie
Gotcha. And you can't reuse them.

01:05:12:16 - 01:05:17:00
Lorenzo
You you could reuse them, but we sell them, so we sell them.

01:05:17:01 - 01:05:18:12
Jessie
Yeah. Yeah.

01:05:18:14 - 01:05:36:20
Lorenzo
I mean, our, we we can, if, if a client come here with an empty amphora, we could, filleted again and put it back in, in the ocean. We could do that if we are asked to.

01:05:36:22 - 01:05:47:21
Jessie
So you pretty much prepare 600 bottles, and they put the new batch in, and you take the batch that's been in the bottom of the sea with back, back with you.

01:05:47:23 - 01:05:49:10
Lorenzo
Yes. Absolutely.

01:05:49:15 - 01:05:55:13
Jessie
Yeah. And so. Oh, go ahead.

01:05:55:14 - 01:06:31:10
Lorenzo
There's an important thing about, preparing them for a, many people do not understand, how complex is to put, our wine inside the name for, instead of putting the wine in a bottle. This creates a lot of problems because, for example, every amphora that we have have a slightly different, content and, has a different weight as well and is not transparent.

01:06:31:12 - 01:06:39:20
Lorenzo
So it makes a lot of problems in filling up the amphora. So every amphora is filled up by and.

01:06:39:22 - 01:06:40:20
Jessie
I figured it.

01:06:40:22 - 01:07:16:12
Lorenzo
Was and yes, and extremely slowly because we need to check with our eyes where the level is for every amphora. And then we have to cork every single amphora by hand. We need to works it. We need to protect it with these two layers of, rubber. So is it is that this process is huge. We probably the amphora gets in our hand, probably ten times at least.

01:07:16:14 - 01:07:23:07
Jessie
At least, I can imagine. So what does one amphora sell for?

01:07:23:09 - 01:07:27:13
Lorenzo
At the moment? We fixed the price at €240.

01:07:27:15 - 01:07:31:17
Jessie
Okay. And you sell out every year?

01:07:31:19 - 01:07:35:19
Lorenzo
Yes. Yes. Do you.

01:07:35:21 - 01:07:42:22
Jessie
That's that's impressive. That's really cool. And when was your first, vintage ready?

01:07:43:00 - 01:07:44:19
Lorenzo
2019.

01:07:44:21 - 01:07:46:04
Jessie
Okay.

01:07:46:06 - 01:08:09:23
Lorenzo
Yeah, 2019 was first commercial amphora. Now we are out with the 21 2020 and the 2020. And we just, put, 20, 21, 650 for us under the water. When? Two weeks ago.

01:08:10:01 - 01:08:12:08
Jaume
Two? Yes, two weeks ago.

01:08:12:11 - 01:08:14:07
Lorenzo
Two weeks ago.

01:08:14:09 - 01:08:22:02
Jaume
Yes. And 16th, maybe or seven. No, it was on 12th of.

01:08:22:04 - 01:08:34:12
Lorenzo
June of June. 12th of June. Yeah. And, we, we take the opportunity to sun to sink this, and for us, at the same time, we pick up the others.

01:08:34:14 - 01:08:35:13
Jessie
Okay.

01:08:35:15 - 01:08:42:05
Lorenzo
You know, because the, the operation is quite expensive because we have to move a big boat.

01:08:42:07 - 01:08:43:20
Jessie
Yeah.

01:08:43:22 - 01:08:45:12
Lorenzo
Yes. That has.

01:08:45:14 - 01:08:46:03
Jessie
It's heavy.

01:08:46:03 - 01:08:50:21
Lorenzo
How do you. Yes. How do you call it the a crane?

01:08:50:23 - 01:08:52:21
Jessie
Okay. Yeah. Like it. Yeah.

01:08:52:22 - 01:09:24:10
Lorenzo
Yeah. You need a crane. Yes. You need a crane on the, on the, on the boat. That take the the cage and put the cage into the water and, we put a balloon, we inflate a balloon on the, on top of the, of the cage that act as a parachute. When we put it down the, the cage under the water.

01:09:24:12 - 01:09:30:21
Jessie
Okay, so you put the bottles in the cage, and you gently lower it down.

01:09:30:23 - 01:10:00:02
Lorenzo
Down on the bottom of the sea. Yeah. Through this, balloon that is, slowing down the, the cage while it's going down under the water. This is super cool. The the entire process is super cool. And of course, we need to to me and John, we're just, dive, as amateurs and we, we watch the operations, but we need, two divers.

01:10:00:02 - 01:10:38:00
Lorenzo
Professional divers that actually can, can go down, at that depth at 30m and, at 30m, the water is, extremely cold is ten degrees. And, they are staying quite a little bit, at that, depth and and sometimes they have to go up and, they have to, to change the bottle of oxygen because, they use, so much oxygen to.

01:10:38:00 - 01:11:13:21
Lorenzo
Oh, wow. Entire operation. Yes. They spend a lot of time this operation looks easy, but at the end, they have to secure the cage under the water. They have to direct the cage. To the right spot, because, the under the water, there are some some corals that they cannot break. So they have to gently put the, the cages in the right spot.

01:11:13:23 - 01:11:22:19
Jessie
Do you leave them in the cages or do you take them out individually? And then you put the new ones in.

01:11:22:21 - 01:11:42:10
Lorenzo
We, we leave it, on in the cage. Sometimes we take some out of the, of the cage and we just lay them down in on on the sand, because it's just, very beautiful to see this end for us. Just on on the sand.

01:11:42:12 - 01:11:46:09
Jessie
Yeah, I've seen pictures. It's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah.

01:11:46:11 - 01:11:54:06
Lorenzo
And so we we do. But the, the majority of the, for us are inside the cage.

01:11:54:08 - 01:12:08:04
Jessie
Okay. That makes sense. It it's easier they don't move around and. Yeah, you know, you don't have to count. Well, we got 625. Where's the other 25? Okay. So they only floated away? Yes.

01:12:08:05 - 01:12:09:12
Lorenzo
Six.

01:12:09:14 - 01:12:16:22
Jessie
Those sea turtles. You can't trust those sea turtles anymore, can you? Yeah.

01:12:16:23 - 01:12:22:21
Lorenzo
We we put, actually, something on the top of the cage.

01:12:22:22 - 01:12:24:11
Jessie
To kind of cover it.

01:12:24:13 - 01:12:47:11
Lorenzo
Yes. We need to cover, do we cover them? And, also, we found, fish inside the the cage. They use the our amphora as, as, their house we used the second time we found the family of marinas.

01:12:47:13 - 01:12:48:10
Jessie
Really?

01:12:48:11 - 01:12:49:18
Lorenzo
The cage? Yes.

01:12:49:22 - 01:12:52:12
Jessie
That would scare me. Okay.

01:12:52:14 - 01:12:56:15
Lorenzo
Yes, yes. Oh, and scare dogs as well. Yeah.

01:12:56:17 - 01:12:58:18
Jessie
How do you go about you.

01:12:58:20 - 01:12:59:13
Lorenzo


01:12:59:15 - 01:13:10:22
Jessie
Yeah. You're in trouble, I mean, and you got a wet suit on, so they might do that or. So what did you. What was the process of moving them?

01:13:11:00 - 01:13:14:05
Lorenzo
You mean the, the the marinas.

01:13:14:07 - 01:13:14:17
Jessie


01:13:14:22 - 01:13:31:05
Lorenzo
Yeah. They were they marinas, when once the, the cages out in the boat, on the boat, the Marina start to come out like snakes coming from the, from the cage. So everybody is quite scared because we are.

01:13:31:06 - 01:13:33:01
Jessie
You didn't know it.

01:13:33:03 - 01:13:59:12
Lorenzo
We don't know that. And we are barefoot. So we are a little bit scared of getting a bite from them. They. And, but we, we accompany them, with, like with the pole, we, we accompany them to the side of the boat and on the side of the boat, there are some apertures and they just they just go out by themselves.

01:13:59:13 - 01:14:16:23
Jessie
Wait, so you okay? You are in the boat, then before you discovered them. Oh, yes. Good grief. Yes. And, and I've seen one one time, there I mean, this was a huge one. It was like this then on six, eight inches round.

01:14:17:01 - 01:14:20:14
Lorenzo
Okay. No, no, that the those are smaller.

01:14:20:16 - 01:14:21:16
Jessie
Okay. Yeah.

01:14:21:20 - 01:14:34:22
Lorenzo
The one that we found and and some in the last time we were enjoying actually the content of a name for our, when, when the, when they came out, so.

01:14:35:02 - 01:14:37:09
Jessie
Oh, I hope you didn't spill any.

01:14:37:11 - 01:14:45:12
Lorenzo
Yes, they ruined it a little bit. The the party, but, was okay.

01:14:45:14 - 01:14:50:03
Jessie
I guess you're going to have to make the cages, with smaller holes.

01:14:50:05 - 01:14:58:16
Lorenzo
Yes, exactly. Yeah. But this part of the, of the experience, I think, is. Yeah. It's nice. It's really. Yeah.

01:14:58:16 - 01:15:18:11
Jessie
The heebie jeebies. Are great. Yes. So, going back to the process of. Okay, so you picked the petite for the by petite Bordeaux, and then do you a barrel aged. I think I read that you do. I don't know if that's something that you're. Yes. Still doing.

01:15:18:13 - 01:16:00:02
Lorenzo
Yes. Because the, the method that, Jerome and I, created is, that we need to put the wine, that is finished that, in terms of taste, has gone through all the, the process because the wood for, for the, the wood aging for a for a red wine for me is almost, necessary, to to increase the quality of, of the red wine.

01:16:00:02 - 01:16:45:21
Lorenzo
The red wine really needs, barrel aging because they get more complex, because they get rounder. They they clean up themselves because they the sediment goes better down in, in, in a wood. And since we are biodynamic, we do not filter our wines. So they, we need the, the, the standard, I would say the, the standard process to obtain a wine that is stable and ready to age, you know, whether it is, in a glass bottle or whether it is, in, in amphora.

01:16:45:23 - 01:16:54:12
Jessie
Okay. So you prepared the, your petite Bordeaux the same as you would, for just regular glass bottles.

01:16:54:14 - 01:16:55:07
Lorenzo
Exactly.

01:16:55:08 - 01:16:58:19
Jessie
Then. Okay. Okay. And how long do you age it for?

01:16:58:19 - 01:17:32:07
Lorenzo
And would in the wood is ten months. Minimum 10 to 11 months. It depends on the years, but, it's the, the the number of months. If it is ten, 11, 12, it's not really important. The most important thing is that you have a minimum aging of eight, nine months in barrel. Okay. Just because the wine needs to breathe needs to, decant.

01:17:32:09 - 01:17:39:07
Lorenzo
And this is a must. And then we go in the bottle or we go in, in the Emperor.

01:17:39:09 - 01:17:42:04
Jessie
And what type of barrels do you use?

01:17:42:06 - 01:18:17:03
Lorenzo
We use, French oak barrels and, used generally. Never knew. We don't like when, when the, the the wood taste is strong. We, we prefer to enhance the, the terroir, the characteristic of the grape variety. So, we use the wood just for, micro oxygenation and for, decanting. Gotcha. More than adding flavors to the wine.

01:18:17:05 - 01:18:19:14
Jessie
Okay. Interesting.

01:18:19:16 - 01:18:20:10
Lorenzo
Okay.

01:18:20:11 - 01:18:32:01
Jessie
So do you all have any mentors that you've had in this project or any resources that you'd want to share just in terms of wine knowledge or this process?

01:18:32:03 - 01:19:08:17
Lorenzo
Actually, this is a unique method. So there's not, a lot of knowledge, about it. You know, our mentor, my mentor was, for example, an old winemaker that, told us how to make wine in a natural way. So without using tannins or, clearing engines, without filtering and, and I'm sure that, for, for Johnny, his mentor was probably Diego, right?

01:19:08:19 - 01:19:09:12
Lorenzo
Oh, man.

01:19:09:14 - 01:19:10:15
Jaume
Yes, yes.

01:19:10:16 - 01:19:18:09
Lorenzo
Yeah, yeah. In terms of, winemaking and in terms of, this aging wine under the water.

01:19:18:11 - 01:19:46:21
Jaume
No. Just, Well, yes, in both, in one making one, I am. No, I'm not a winemaker. So, so I just, I just. Yeah. Yeah, I just can tell you that the, the, the my, my special mentor about the this this wine aging was the able. Yes. Both will meets as well. Lorenzo.

01:19:46:23 - 01:19:49:18
Jessie
Okay. And he makes he's a winemaker.

01:19:49:20 - 01:20:09:01
Jaume
For your period. Yeah. Yes. Yes, he is. Okay. He, he, he has, a little, winery, really a little winery. Just, maybe 3000 bottles per year.

01:20:09:03 - 01:20:15:09
Jessie
Okay. And what is it called and what varietals does he focus on?

01:20:15:10 - 01:20:17:13
Jaume
Karenina and Garnacha.

01:20:17:14 - 01:20:22:17
Jessie
Okay. Makes sense if for that area. Yes.

01:20:22:17 - 01:20:29:22
Jaume
That is that is the the varieties, the natural varieties of that just catena and Garnacha.

01:20:30:00 - 01:20:43:11
Jessie
So, Lorenzo I, I kind of was slightly to you on Facebook, I'll just admit that, freely. And I saw that you had a post that you had met Steven Spurrier.

01:20:43:13 - 01:20:44:08
Lorenzo
Yes.

01:20:44:10 - 01:20:48:12
Jessie
I mean, a legend in our industry. Yeah. And of course, you know, of.

01:20:48:13 - 01:20:49:14
Lorenzo
The for.

01:20:49:15 - 01:21:00:05
Jessie
The feature, a movie called Bottle Shock. So I'm curious, can you tell us about that experience and how you met him and when you met him?

01:21:00:07 - 01:21:29:03
Lorenzo
Steven Spurrier is, such a normal person. When I met him, I knew already about, The Judgment of Paris before the movie came out. I knew already the story, the entire story. So for me, he was a legend. And, it happened that I met him in London, and, I went to him, and I said that I have some wines here.

01:21:29:05 - 01:21:59:22
Lorenzo
Can you do you want to try them? And, he was extremely, as a, as an not, not, a tall, a difficult person or, so he it was really interesting to see. Yeah. So, I want to try your wines from my name. Let's go to taste them. And so he came to my booth and he started to try the wines.

01:22:00:00 - 01:22:34:01
Lorenzo
And since then we we were, always in touch. He was working, in decanter, and so he sent some samples. He did some reviews for my wines. And he was always so gentle in, in the reply when I was, writing him my emails and, it happened that, he got one of my amphora, and, I was so delighted.

01:22:34:01 - 01:23:08:15
Lorenzo
I have a comments from him about the amphora, and he said, you know, the amphora is gonna be in my room of special wines. So he he has, a room, where he put all the wines that really, are amazing for, for himself. So Romani or some Romani Conti, probably of some specific vintage. And he also has our amphoras there.

01:23:08:17 - 01:23:16:08
Lorenzo
But, you know, that recently died. So. Yeah, this, this was sad for everybody.

01:23:16:10 - 01:23:16:23
Jessie
Yeah.

01:23:17:01 - 01:23:26:22
Lorenzo
But, I'm happy that he has, in his house. He has, one of our, for us.

01:23:27:00 - 01:23:33:18
Jessie
That's really cool. Did he ever try one and then keep one or.

01:23:33:20 - 01:24:06:03
Lorenzo
I don't remember exactly. Is comment. I don't know if he open it, the wine, or he just put it in this room. I may try to find this comment some more. So we will put the comment actually in our and for our Murray's, Instagram probably we will do a post and we will put his comment on on and for our Maris.

01:24:06:05 - 01:24:10:01
Jessie
Yeah. Look for it and share it because that's pretty cool. Yes.

01:24:10:03 - 01:24:28:07
Lorenzo
Yeah, it's pretty cool that because he is really a legend. And so I need to move, in another place because, the battery are, okay, are low. My Mac is a little bit old.

01:24:28:09 - 01:24:51:01
Jessie
Okay. No worries. What? You know, in terms of, I guess, you I mean, you don't really have a, you know, you have such small production and it's very popular. You guys don't have probably a whole lot of problems, selling it, but how did how did you what was that process like in trying to get the word out?

01:24:51:03 - 01:24:57:00
Jessie
And how did people respond to it when you were first kind of releasing it?

01:24:57:02 - 01:25:25:11
Lorenzo
We found out that, this is a product that, cannot be sold, just by looking at it, you know, it's if you put it in a wine shop like that, just, showing the product, nobody will buy it. And the reason is not just for for the price, of course. The price is, is scaring people because it's a high price.

01:25:25:13 - 01:25:35:14
Lorenzo
But, the, the fact is that this is a product that you need to, to tell the story.

01:25:35:16 - 01:25:35:21
Jessie
Yeah.

01:25:35:22 - 01:26:07:12
Lorenzo
The story is so amazing that, people, immediately when you speak about the project, the people really fall in love with the product and the people who love wine, who love history, who loves, unique product and who loves the sea, cannot, cannot be amazed by the project. And most of the people buy it just for the stories.

01:26:07:12 - 01:26:11:20
Lorenzo
They don't care if the wine is good or not.

01:26:11:22 - 01:26:32:06
Jessie
Yeah, that's that's that's interesting. And I wonder how many people are like Steven and just put it in there. Special in the special wine area. That's funny. Yeah, I think I think it's one of those things that, you know, if you're really into wine and you're in the wine world, you do it. You get to do it.

01:26:32:06 - 01:26:42:06
Jessie
Once, right? Yes, you get it. You gotta try it. I guess it's probably not something that you have in the tasting room. Yes.

01:26:42:08 - 01:26:58:17
Lorenzo
Okay. Exactly, exactly. And and actually, you can share. I remember, at a wine fair, I wanted to bring these amphora and, I was able to serve, 20 people out of it.

01:26:58:19 - 01:26:59:07
Jessie
You. Wow.

01:26:59:11 - 01:27:28:10
Lorenzo
A sip? Yeah. Little sip. And a lot of people were interested, and they were, like, in line because they see me serving these and all the people around. Can I have one seat? And, you know, 20 people were able to experience this special wine, which is amazing. I mean, you you don't have to be rich to, to try it.

01:27:28:12 - 01:27:56:17
Jessie
No, no, it's still very affordable in the world of wine. Yes, yes, exactly. Very cool. Well, you know, this has been really fun. I'm excited to tell your story, and I really appreciate you guys taking time out of your day to spend it with me. And, I'm really glad I. I think I found you must have found you on Instagram.

01:27:56:19 - 01:28:18:18
Jessie
And, you know, of course, as soon as I saw. I saw your post, your of your. I think it was the one where you're, you're on the sand and you're, you're you can see the bottle that's been aging on the sand. And immediately I said, I have to talk to these guys because this is the coolest thing I've ever seen and heard of.

01:28:18:18 - 01:28:41:08
Jessie
So, you know, congratulations on this collaborative, you know, you know, project that you guys are working on. And hopefully you can get some more bottles at some point. It I think it'd be interesting. I know you're you're doing petite video, but bubbles would be interesting just to see you know how it works out. But but yeah, this is really cool.

01:28:41:10 - 01:28:43:07
Jessie
Is there anything else is.

01:28:43:09 - 01:29:16:14
Lorenzo
Yeah. This is a project where you can, actually use a lot of, imagination and fantasy because, you can work on the shape of the M for us, because you can change the shape, and the wine would change taste. You can change the kind of clay you can use. You can change the C, you can change the depth.

01:29:16:15 - 01:29:29:15
Lorenzo
You can change the varieties. You can change the kind of wines, as you said, bubbles. Rosé wine. You know, we are just at the beginning.

01:29:29:15 - 01:29:30:06
Jessie
Beginning.

01:29:30:06 - 01:29:54:14
Lorenzo
And, Yeah. And thanks to Jerome, everything started. And, we are so excited of, what is expecting us. You know, it's, it's really, It's it's. The future has to be written, I think, for this product.

01:29:54:15 - 01:30:13:14
Jessie
Yeah, 100%. And I'm wondering if it's if it's catching on at all or if there's other people that are going to see what you're doing and, and, you know, touch base and, and maybe try something in a different part of the world and test it and see if it's, you know, the results are different.

01:30:13:15 - 01:30:34:03
Lorenzo
Yeah. We are we are not jealous of our idea, actually. And, we are open to give, you know, information and, everything that is needed for someone who want to try to try come from Paris.

01:30:34:05 - 01:30:40:04
Jessie
So are you working on a patent then, for that at all?

01:30:40:06 - 01:30:44:17
Lorenzo
You you you started the process of the patented right patent.

01:30:44:19 - 01:31:17:21
Jaume
Yes. Here. But it's, it, it's difficult because, they you guys, they ask you, the project and a lot of information about, the way you are aging the the wine and just changing some, some ridiculous thing. You can you can make, the same the same method. So I think it's not important.

01:31:17:23 - 01:31:56:11
Jaume
And, and as well, the wall and the wall, that is a lot of people, that that, that can, that, that be able to, to taste, all the, all the wines you can, you can age under the sea. So we, we can't, serve all the people. So, it's not I think it's not necessary to, to take, that, that project, keep that project, really close.

01:31:56:16 - 01:32:00:14
Jaume
It's it's, I think it's it's unnecessary.

01:32:00:16 - 01:32:20:15
Jessie
Gotcha. Well, I dive, I'm like you. I'm not professional. Of course. Probably less than 30 times, maybe. But if you ever need volunteers, let me know, because that would be so fun. Minus the eels, of course, but they're small, so that's cool. Yeah.

01:32:20:17 - 01:32:54:18
Lorenzo
That's the dive center in front of our winery, because we are close to the sea. That is actually that created, an activity. So there's, a shipwreck, a true shipwreck, not from the Roman times, but these modern shipwreck. And they hide in amphora, one of our amphora inside the shipwreck. And they have, a team of divers that, pay for the activity and whoever find the amphora keeps it.

01:32:54:20 - 01:33:08:04
Jessie
Oh, that's cool. That's super cool. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty cool. So I guess they that once somebody books that excursion, they, they go and hide it beforehand.

01:33:08:06 - 01:33:11:00
Lorenzo
Exactly, exactly.

01:33:11:02 - 01:33:22:01
Jessie
That's really cool. I love that the local, you know, you're local people are behind it and and enjoying it as well. That's very cool. Yeah.

01:33:22:03 - 01:33:25:12
Lorenzo
It is. This is super nice.

01:33:25:14 - 01:33:47:18
Jessie
Yeah. Well, let's stay in touch. And and I look forward to, hearing more from you guys in the future. And, you know, I, I really hope you can get, work with the university to get some of the more. You know, I would call it nerdy studies, but, you know, I'm a nerd, so. So, you know, but I just think that would be really super helpful.

01:33:47:19 - 01:34:18:01
Jessie
Would help catapult this idea, you know, to into more winemakers hands. Because I think it I think I think it would be so interesting to see this experiment grow, in different parts of the world with different potential varietals. So, yeah, very cool guys. It's super awesome. You're, you're innovators at the, at your core. But there's one any other projects you guys are looking at doing?

01:34:18:03 - 01:34:24:01
Lorenzo
And we have not the only project, but, we want to keep them secrets.

01:34:24:03 - 01:34:30:14
Jessie
Okay. Well, when you want to announce them, you can come here and let me know.

01:34:30:16 - 01:34:32:15
Lorenzo
We can just reveal everything.

01:34:32:17 - 01:34:35:22
Jessie
That's right. Not in, not in one setting, anyway.

01:34:36:00 - 01:34:47:13
Lorenzo
Exactly. We don't want to lose the pleasure to expose our secrets and our new project, in the future.

01:34:47:15 - 01:35:03:18
Jessie
Well, if I ever get to Italy, which, I was supposed to. And then Covid happened, and then. And then we tried again, and then it didn't happen. And so then it got canceled. So, But, yeah, we're definitely going to get over there at some point. We'll have to come visit. Yeah. Check it out.

01:35:03:20 - 01:35:09:16
Lorenzo
You are welcome to come here already. And, maybe today.

01:35:09:18 - 01:35:22:03
Jessie
Oh let me see those. I might have to do the, the excursion again. And for, of course, you know, I'm a little slow, so I don't know if I'd be the fastest one to get it.

01:35:22:04 - 01:35:23:05
Lorenzo
You never know.

01:35:23:07 - 01:35:34:22
Jessie
You never know. You just got to be lucky, right? Right time, right place. Exactly. Alrighty, guys, this is awesome. Have a good rest of your evening in the good rest of your week.

01:35:35:00 - 01:35:36:10
Lorenzo
Thank you so much already.

01:35:36:14 - 01:35:37:19
Jessie
Thank you. Thank you for.

01:35:37:21 - 01:35:38:13
Lorenzo
Sharing.

01:35:38:15 - 01:35:45:08
Jessie
Yep. Of course. Joe, this week's episode was produced by Fedora Jay Productions.